1914 EK made before or after 1918?

[sb98]

I believe it would be very very difficult to determine exactly which cross
is a war time awarded cross and which is not without some sort of
provenance .

Of all my crosses, I have only one that I know is a wartime awarded piece.
One that was given to me by the widow of the ww1 vet who picked it up.
Notice the blood stained ribbon--

Not to go off on a tangent, but... Greg, are you sure it's blood? From the picture it kind of looks like it was pinned to something and got stained. Soldiers didn't wear an EKII medal on their uniform on the battlefield, just the ribbon at a button hole or a ribbon bar. Do you think the blood was from someone being shot while wearing it, or...?

[RelicHunter]

I was once told that, as it regards EK1's, flat models are more likely war time, and vaulted models are post war. Not sure how true that is.

[Roglebk]

I was once told that, as it regards EK1's, flat models are more likely war time, and vaulted models are post war. Not sure how true that is.

Not true at all. Regarding 1914 EKIs the vaulted ones are 'private purchase' pieces and they were also sometimes "hand vaulted" by the recipients. Hand vaulting was going on in WWII too.

Cross below is a heavily vaulted Private purchase, marked with 'Incuse 800'.

[Montgomery Burns]

that the vaulted ones,,, by definition,,,,
would be private purchase is a commonly accepted assumption .

I am not so sure about that ,,,,,,,,,


by the way ,,nice cross



regards kay

[gregM]

Not to go off on a tangent, but... Greg, are you sure it's blood? From the picture it kind of looks like it was pinned to something and got stained. Soldiers didn't wear an EKII medal on their uniform on the battlefield, just the ribbon at a button hole or a ribbon bar. Do you think the blood was from someone being shot while wearing it, or...?

I am sure it is blood. I am aware that as a rule, crosses were not worn at
the front. I do not know the exact circumstances under which the cross was
found however I do know that this cross was sent home during ww1 by the
husband of a family friend during ww1. It was given to me directly from
that friend in 1972. I never knew the vet as he died long before but his
wife and I were very close and she gave me the cross, a helmet and a
sawtooth bayonet , all of which were souvenirs sent back back by her
husband.

[Roglebk]

I am not so sure about that ,,,,,,,,,

by the way ,,nice cross

regards kay

Please show us a vaulted awarded one. One that was not vaulted by the recipient.

[Montgomery Burns]

Please show us a vaulted awarded one. One that was not vaulted by the recipient.

no, no, no,

the question you should ask yourself is ,,,

where dos the assumption comes from ?
that vaulted crosses did never handed out as awarded crosses ?

where is that proof to begin with


regards kay

[panzerguy]

no, no, no,

the question you should ask yourself is ,,,

where dos the assumption comes from ?
that vaulted crosses did never handed out as awarded crosses ?

where is that proof to begin with


regards kay

great point. It was stated a in a collectors EK book somewhere and the opinion took a life all of its own. Who really knows!? No proof given.

I like Nazi Party member pins that are pre-34 (pre-RZM), w/o the RZM marking. That's something a guy can really hang a hat on to get a grip on dating a piece.

[saschaw]

Oh, oh...



I made some explanation on that issue recently in the other place.

Check especially last posting of this thread: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/55...at-vs-vaulted/

[gregM]

Well done Sascha
I learned something today.

[RelicHunter]

Let me ask this, are there makes of any 1914 Ek1's that are known for sure to be war issued pieces?

[phild]

Let me ask this, are there makes of any 1914 Ek1's that are known for sure to be war issued pieces?

\


I think that there are many. Generally (I may be wrong in a few cases) there are examples of KO, WS, SW, and many many other "initial marked" as well as many unmarked EKIs that are flat, with both Iron and stamped steel cores that have very solid provonance of being actual WWI award items. I have personally seen dozens over many years.

Of course as with any item that there has not been a legal chain of custody in effect one can argue and contest the background.....but common sense has to come into play at some point when collecting militaria.

This is not to say for example that every KO was awarded in WWI, or that every G98 was issued or that every M17 Helm was worn during the war. Manufacturing techniques did not change at 11:01 on Nov.11 1918 so it is impossible in most cases to say 100% if most any undated item...like a medal/badge was made before that date or afterward.....but as stated earlier most agree that there were large numbers of un-issued stock or most every item for the war on hand when it ended. One has to ask what the market would have been for many years that would have supported continued manufacture of most of these items?

[Montgomery Burns]

Well sascha ,,,,

grate statement ,,,
http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/55...at-vs-vaulted/



shamefully fore me ,,, i have never seen official documents off the GOK ( or other explaining period documents relevant to the 1914/1918 era )
that state explicit that the ek's must be flat as production criteria.
otherwise they would not be allowed to be awarded ?

if you are so sure about that , and what the GOK would handled as criteria ( the " Probemäßigkeit " )

would you be so kind to pass on ,,,, or share ,
the source where the GOK criteria can be found /?

I am greedy if it comes to investigation surrounding the Iron Cross .

and need more than just a statement to abandon my doubts ( that I happily would like to abandon )


regards kay

[Roglebk]

no, no, no,

the question you should ask yourself is ,,,

where dos the assumption comes from ?
that vaulted crosses did never handed out as awarded crosses ?

where is that proof to begin with


regards kay

The assumption comes from the rules of the GOK Kay. Can admit i never saw them in print but this has been known for long. Problem is that even on official award ceremonies, in field or wherever, a vaulted cross could possibly be mixed into the others in some way. Hence my question.

[Roglebk]

Oh, oh...



I made some explanation on that issue recently in the other place.

Check especially last posting of this thread: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/55...at-vs-vaulted/

Thanks Sascha, have you read the documents yourself or base it on "old knowledge"