The shared frames & cores of 1870 Godet & Wagner EK's

[Montgomery Burns]

so Biro ! ( and all others who are helping )

is it save to say ?


assumptions off exclusive Wagner Godet related frame and cores are outdated by this research off Biro from now on ..yes ?


left only
marked or unmarked crosses
with type a/b core ( and others still to be found )
and type1 frame's ( and other type off frame still to be found ) ?

correct ?







regards kay
.

[streptile]

Hi Marshall,

Congratulations on this much-needed exploration, and your important and fascinating discoveries.

Let's see, where to begin? I have a lot to say, but basically -- if I've understood your conclusions -- I would simply have to say that I agree with them, and I am pleasantly surprised by them.

I have long considered that Wagner used only one frame for their Type A and Type A1 EKs. This frame, to me, is readily distinguished not by the beading in the inner corners (which is often too worn down, as you've mentioned), but by an interesting phenomenon whereby the beads get progressively smaller and closer together as they approach the outer corners. This is especially noticeable in the upper left corner:



The other characteristic that aids me to identify this frame is a long flaw on the 1 o'clock beading strand:



Because this flaw is something the developed over time (presumably), however, it's not always there. So the beading crunch is what I use.

By the way, you can see this beading crunch clearly on both these examples you've posted:



Now, as the the "Alphabet Frame," which is seen on my cross here:



...I actually, for over a year, was perfectly convinced this was the same frame Godet used on their famous marked 1914 EKs. I realized this was not the case some six months ago, but it is so damn close that it took me some serious time to dislodge the notion from my head.

I think it's fair to say you have demonstrated that this "Alphabet Frame" was used by both Godet and Wagner. This is big news!

Honestly, I was unsure based on Reservist's cross. The photo is just too poor:



But Straube's clinches it for me. I see neither of the traits of the traditional Wagner frame, and everything syncs with the Alphabet Frame:



To me, the next step is to try and determine if these two frames were used by Wagner concurrently, or in sequence.

To that end: any photos of the full reverse of Reservist's cross?

[Biro]

Hi Trev and welcome aboard!

It was beginning to feel a bit like a blog rather than a thread....

Glad you concur with things so far - and to me...

...the next step is to try and determine if these two frames were used by Wagner concurrently, or in sequence...

... this is EXACTLY what I was hoping we can ascertain by looking at these frames in depth. The clues might come in pin type, vaulted versus flat versions, etc... to discover a pattern or trend that allowed better dating of these EK1's would be a huge discovery for the community.

Here is the reverse of Reservist1's Type A1 you asked for - a slightly unique and later style pin set-up, but nonetheless a totally genuine Type A1 core WAGNER





I think it would be of great benefit before we start looking at GODET's (which I think we can both pretty clearly identify) and 'LL' marked pieces (perplexing, which I'll show you later) to come to a definite conclusion about whether there were one or two frames used by Wagner.

I confess to still being unsure - even with the bead crunch analogy, I seem to see this distinctive key bead in nearly every damn frame I look at now!





Like you with the 1914 frames, I've become slightly fixated by this one stand out characteristicly shaped bead which I seem to see on every example posted here - and together with a consistant bead count along the bottom 6 o'clock arm of 37 beads (from the same fixed start and end points), I'm beginning to wonder whether the WAGNERS are all in fact Type 1 'Alphabet' Frames!





I think you are probably right though, because (for example) I cant see clear 'Alphabet Frame' characteristics on the inner corners of my own Type A1 (which are worn, but not obliterated) and in fact the A1 example you posted directly above with the beading flaw highlighted also looks like it might be devoid of these 'Alphabet' shaped beads - but i cant be totally certain.

Can you find an example of a WAGNER marked frame you consider NOT an 'Alphabet' Type 1 frame, check the bead count and post it here for me together with your observations of what and why it is different?

Once you have me on board with that, we are off and running!

Cheers mate...


Marsh

[Willi Z.]

Not sure how my only contribution fits in (sorry if I have polluted this great discussion with an EKII), but here it is. I have no references yet, but liked this Ordenschnalle so much I had to have it!

I understand the Jubilee clasp, but when was the EK made and who is the manufacturer?

[Biro]

....Honestly, I was unsure based on Reservist's cross. The photo is just too poor...

Just a quick update re this Trevor

Reservist1 was kind enough to provide some high res scans of his A1 Core Wagner and they pretty much confirm what I suspected from the earlier photos of his cross in this thread. The frame has all the unmistakable hall marks of this Type 1 Alphabet Frame

Here is the cross..





.... and a close up of the centre of his cross showing clearly the 'Type 1' frame's characteristic central beading configuration... in particular, the very distinctive top left bead and of course the top right 'half moon' shaped bead.






This now gives us definitively the full set of Godet and Wagner marked crosses, all with different cores but the same Type 1 Frames.

Thanks to Reservist1 for his timely help!

If anyone else has anything to contribute at this pont, please don't hesitate to jump in.

Willi - your EK2 cannot be properly identified unless you can provide photo's of the quality shown above. Too much glare and to small and Kay, if I understand your question correctly, the answer is Yes.

[gregM]

It would be really interesting to know what was going on back then.
We know they shared cores made by the Berlin iron works. (typeA)
and we assume they shared the typeB cores as well. Now we find that
they shared frames. Makes me wonder where they sourced the frames
or which one of the two was stamping them out. Maybe we have a third
player making frames and supplying them to both firms much like the Berlin
foundry supply cores.

I am really curious about the B cores. Imo the 7s are two ugly to have
designed that way. Makes me think that they had a major malfunction
with a typeA die and the resulting repair created the "short 7" ---but
that's for another day.

[Biro]

... we assume they shared the typeB cores as well...

Hi Greg

I think despite the fact that the 'Type 1' frames were quite obviously universally available to both Godet and Wagner, there is no proof (and I think it highly unlikely) that Wagner ever used the B Type core and nor is Godet known to have used the Type A1 core.

These two cores (the B Type for Godet and the A1 for Wagner) seem to be unique to these two companies, in maker marked examples anyway, and the A Type we have known for some time that they both use.

I know Godet used a frame unique to them that is not a Type 1 (I have one, I think Tonys is one etc...), so I think the next crucial step here is probably to figure out whether there is in fact a second type of frame used by Wagner. Hopefully Trev or anyone else reading can come up with something on that.

..I am really curious about the B cores. Imo the 7s are two ugly to have designed that way. Makes me think that they had a major malfunction with a typeA die and the resulting repair created the "short 7" ---but that's for another day.

Crowns are also totally different Greg, so that would seem unlikely.

Marshall

[streptile]

I think it would be of great benefit ... to come to a definite conclusion about whether there were one or two frames used by Wagner. I confess to still being unsure - even with the bead crunch analogy, I seem to see this distinctive key bead in nearly every damn frame I look at now! Can you find an example of a WAGNER marked frame you consider NOT an 'Alphabet' Type 1 frame, check the bead count and post it here for me together with your observations of what and why it is different?

Hi Marshall,

I agree. This would be the crucial next step.

I will do a little presentation on the two different frames. Just got to find the time. But I am quite sure that the Wagner Type A and Type A1 cores are usually housed in one specific type of frame, and that this frame is not the "Alphabet Frame." Let's call it the "Wagner Frame" for now. It's the one with the crunched beads in the outer corners.

It is because of this belief of mine that I continue to call your frame the "Alphabet Frame" -- I think "Type 1 Frame" is sort of dangerous, as I believe that the "Wagner Frame" was almost certainly the first one used, so has some claim to that title.

so Biro ! ( and all others who are helping ) is it save to say ? assumptions off exclusive Wagner Godet related frame and cores are outdated by this research off Biro from now on ..yes ? left only marked or unmarked crosses with type a/b core ( and others still to be found ) and type1 frame's ( and other type off frame still to be found ) ? correct ? regards kay

Kay, if I understand your question correctly, the answer is Yes.

Sorry, I would have to say, "no."

As I said but have yet to demonstrate conclusively, I believe there is a "Wagner Frame" -- and then there is the "Alphabet Frame," which Wagner obviously used occasionally, and Godet seems to have used somewhat regularly. Then there are some others that we can get to later.

Moreover, I believe that Wagner used the "Wagner Frame" on their very earliest 1870 EKs, as well as their very first 1914 EKs. This is important, since it shows that Wagner's use of the "Alphabet Frame" was some kind of temporary fix, for who knows what reason? In any case, the "Wagner Frame" served Wagner pretty well for a period of some 44 years, with some apparent interruptions.

So in answer to Kay's good question, I would have to say that -- as of this moment -- we have at least one frame that is known only on Wagners. Thus I suspect -- although this is subject to change pending new evidence -- that a cross using this frame can be legitimately considered a Wagner.

All of this will require some work on my part to demonstrate, which I intend to do soon (at which point I hope not to put my foot in my mouth).

[streptile]

so I think the next crucial step here is probably to figure out whether there is in fact a second type of frame used by Wagner.

Hi Marshall, I agree. This would be the crucial next step.

We were posting at the exact same time, and used the same phrase to describe the same thing.

[Biro]

is it save to say assumptions off exclusive Wagner Godet related frame and cores are outdated by this research off Biro from now on ..yes ?
left only
marked or unmarked crosses
with type a/b core ( and others still to be found )
and type1 frame's ( and other type off frame still to be found ) ?
correct ?.... regards kay...

...Kay, if I understand your question correctly, the answer is Yes...

...Sorry, I would have to say, "no." ...

Clearly, I don't understand the question...

...Moreover, I believe that Wagner used the "Wagner Frame" on their very earliest 1870 EKs, as well as their very first 1914 EKs. ...

Fascinating!

... It is because of this belief of mine that I continue to call your frame the "Alphabet Frame" -- I think "Type 1 Frame" is sort of dangerous, as I believe that the "Wagner Frame" was almost certainly the first one used, so has some claim to that title...

Great! Alphabet frame it is. I have a TON of pictures now Trev - if you want anything for your presentation, you know what to do...

We were posting at the exact same time, and used the same phrase to describe the same thing.

Maybe the journey to find my long lost twin brother is over!

[Montgomery Burns]

wy dont we ?

keep on holding this thread as base fore the whole 1870 story research
and combine forces and so keep on being united on the same place ?

advantage would be ,,,
we don't get distracted by all sorts off links forward and backwards .
in separate threads over the same thing ?

horrible it would be if
this first crucial thread and the observation by Biro gets lost

throe other opened threads with highly discussed findings
and so Biro's findings diminish in to the background ..

that would be sad and unjust


what do you guy's think ?

regards kay




regards kay

[Biro]

I personally am only waiting for Trevor to do his presentation of the 'Wagner frame' and then, pending any discussion/rebuttal on that, I think we are clear to move on to the GODET frame.

Once we've established the frame Types so everyone is comfortable and can identify them, we can start to look at any trends that might give us a timeline on the production.

Marshall

[Montgomery Burns]

ok !

I am very curious after your findings


who can nail a pure wagner frame from this point onwards



regards kay

[Montgomery Burns]

some time now ?








.

[morel5000]

I recently purchased another 1870 ek2 with the alphabet frame. I'm still curious about the Wagner frame presentation (Trevor ) and if other A/A1 and or B types (either ek1 or ek2) surfaced with this alphabet frame.

Best regards,
Michel