EKII Doc Question

[MJC]

Silly question. Does the date on an EKII document have any relation to the occurence for which the award was bestowed, or is it simply the data the award was processed? I assume the latter, but want to confirm.

Thanks

[Brian L.]

Silly question. Does the date on an EKII document have any relation to the occurence for which the award was bestowed, or is it simply the data the award was processed? I assume the latter, but want to confirm.

Thanks

I am not an expert on EK documents, but have collected them over the years. So, this information is from observation.

Some EK documents have 2 dates: the date of the recommendation for the award and/or the action for which the EK was awarded as well as the date the EK was authorized.

If you read the body copy of the document, this is where you will find the date of the action for which the award was made or the date of the recommendation.

Most documents just has a date at the bottom. This is the authorization date. The actual medal would likely have been given sometime later than that.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Silly question. Does the date on an EKII document have any relation to the occurence for which the award was bestowed, or is it simply the data the award was processed? I assume the latter, but want to confirm.

Thanks

They usually have the date of the award and the date the EK doc was signed.

On very rare occasions the date of the action is included.

Then there are those with the date the doc was signed, but no mention of when the award was actually made/authorised. Sometimes the medal had been given a year or two before.

A handful have the date the award was made/authorised, but not when the doc was signed.

do you have a pic?

Best
Chris

[MJC]

Thanks for both responses. The doc in question is part of a collection of material to a man who was on the periphery of some interesting events.

I am hoping to acquire it, but the seller seems very busy. I'll certainly post the images if better ones are offered, and thanks again!

Mike

[Silberstrand]

And what do you think about this document (EKII), is it maybe original?

The seller of my cross have it but it was a separate purchase. I can still buy it until 13th March... I have no idea what to do, it cost 30 euro too.





Thank you in advance!

[Brian L.]

The document is definitely a genuine hand-written preliminary document mimeographed in the field on a Gestetner machine. But, 30 Euros is a bit high for a document like this to an infantryman.

15-20 Euros would be more realistic.

FYI, it's not worth the effort to fake most EK documents, as of yet because they are still relatively cheap. Those that are faked are generally either the very decorative designs, and/or for scarce units like colonial troops, Sturm Battalions, certain regiments, and/or for scarce actions. Most fakes that I've seen are typed on the wrong type of paper, as few forgers know enough about period paper stock, and more importantly lack the requisite skill to write convincingly in Sütterlinschrift. Often even Germans have a hard time reading it. A common comment one often sees on eBay is that the seller cannot read Sütterlinschrift very well.

Fortunately, I can read it pretty well, which has allowed me to pick up some nice and rare documents which have been missed by the seller and other buyers.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Here is a selection of fakes...

http://www.kaiserscross.com/76501.html

[Brian L.]

re: Fake documents

Unlike 3rd Reich documents which had a comparatively few variations, WWI documents are as varied in design as one can imagine. As well, one often comes across genuine 3rd Reich blanks, which have been "filled out" with spurious information. By comparison, I think there are few genuine WWI blanks floating around. I've got a couple I've bought, more so to keep them out of the hands of unscrupulous dealers.

So, the forger of WWI documents has to most liekly start from scratch and would need a quite elaborate set-up and considerable graphic arts skills to pull off a good fake. The biggest challenge would be the paper. On paper that would now be nearly 100 years old, there would be normal aging (known as "foxing") even on documents that had been really cared for. This is almost impossible to replicate artificially to a point where it would fool someone who knows what to look for.

The second problem would be the printing. Field documents were often mimeographed using alcohol transfer (such as with the document below), which is impossible now unless someone can find an old Gestetner or similar copier and can get the proper medium, chemicals and papers.

Professionally printed documents were either done on a lithographic press using a litho stone or more commonly on a Platen press.

All the fakes I've seen have been done on a computer and printed on a laser printer - easy to spot like those in the link provided by Chris.

Ink stamps are no guarantee of originality as they are the easiest thing to fake in the process and in any case, there are originals around.

Lastly, the signatures of the officers are often badly done, and in any event the officers are often traceable.

Given all of this, it's not worth the effort on documents, most of which are still well under 100 Euros.

[Chris Boonzaier]

The biggest challenge would be the paper. On paper that would now be nearly 100 years old, there would be normal aging (known as "foxing") even on documents that had been really cared for. This is almost impossible to replicate artificially to a point where it would fool someone who knows what to look for.
.

A number of fake docs are made by taking the blank pages out of period books. There is enough of it around. The 1st and 2nd copies pictured were done that way, so the paper was perfect, the rest not.

[Brian L.]

A number of fake docs are made by taking the blank pages out of period books. There is enough of it around. The 1st and 2nd copies pictured were done that way, so the paper was perfect, the rest not.

Yes. Quite common. But the paper isn't necessarily the correct type. Paper from books, especially old books usually has a watermark which is related to the book-binder or publisher.

The particular fake documents that you illustrate on your site are on the wrong paper. it's hard to describe the correct paper in words. But, it is quite soft, like rag paper and has a particular type of nap or texture to it.

The issue is of course that the average collector can be fooled by something as simple as genuine old paper and an ink stamp, unless he's handled a lot of documents and knows what to look for.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Yes. Quite common. But the paper isn't necessarily the correct type. Paper from books, especially old books usually has a watermark which is related to the book-binder or publisher.

The particular fake documents that you illustrate on your site are on the wrong paper. it's hard to describe the correct paper in words. But, it is quite soft, like rag paper and has a particular type of nap or texture to it.

The issue is of course that the average collector can be fooled by something as simple as genuine old paper and an ink stamp, unless he's handled a lot of documents and knows what to look for.

IMHO wrong.

I have about 700-750 WW1 EK docs and have been collecting them for over 20 years, so can lay a fair claim to have handeled a lot. There are all kinds of watermarks or lack thereof.

A faker taking a sheet from an old book and doing a Generic style of document on an old press could be home safe and sound unless he makes an error in the wording or signature.

If you follow the paper types used for the same document type then it becomes evident that there is no arcane knowledge of "knowing" good old paper from bad old paper.

The East African fakes at the top of the page have a paper that could well be used for a generic doc. The texture is not usual, but would not be impossible. Most period books have sheets where the paper would be impossible to tell. In all my years of collecting, I have never seen any EK doc collector using watermarks as a test, is IMHO not of any help.

Best
Chris

[Silberstrand]

The document is definitely a genuine hand-written preliminary document mimeographed in the field on a Gestetner machine. But, 30 Euros is a bit high for a document like this to an infantryman.

15-20 Euros would be more realistic.

FYI, it's not worth the effort to fake most EK documents, as of yet because they are still relatively cheap. Those that are faked are generally either the very decorative designs, and/or for scarce units like colonial troops, Sturm Battalions, certain regiments, and/or for scarce actions. Most fakes that I've seen are typed on the wrong type of paper, as few forgers know enough about period paper stock, and more importantly lack the requisite skill to write convincingly in Sütterlinschrift. Often even Germans have a hard time reading it. A common comment one often sees on eBay is that the seller cannot read Sütterlinschrift very well.

Fortunately, I can read it pretty well, which has allowed me to pick up some nice and rare documents which have been missed by the seller and other buyers.

Now the document is online again, it is 26 euros. I do not know what to do I'm new to collecting and after buying a nice cross to the seller had also thought about buying the paper to accompany ... But as I say, it's hard to be the same document from the original cross. I think with the money I can buy a new beautiful medal. What do you think? Maybe I can wait and find a nicer paper perhaps?

Sorry for stealing your time and thanks for all the information I have read

[Brian L.]

IMHO wrong.

I have about 700-750 WW1 EK docs and have been collecting them for over 20 years, so can lay a fair claim to have handeled a lot. There are all kinds of watermarks or lack thereof.

A faker taking a sheet from an old book and doing a Generic style of document on an old press could be home safe and sound unless he makes an error in the wording or signature.

If you follow the paper types used for the same document type then it becomes evident that there is no arcane knowledge of "knowing" good old paper from bad old paper.

The East African fakes at the top of the page have a paper that could well be used for a generic doc. The texture is not usual, but would not be impossible. Most period books have sheets where the paper would be impossible to tell. In all my years of collecting, I have never seen any EK doc collector using watermarks as a test, is IMHO not of any help.

Best
Chris

All valid points. I bow to expert.

I concede that you're right that it's not hard to find old paper, a Platen press and in fact not hard to find old block letter type or even a Morgenthaler Linotype machine for typesetting.

So, it's true that anything is plausible.

[Brian L.]

Now the document is online again, it is 26 euros. I do not know what to do I'm new to collecting and after buying a nice cross to the seller had also thought about buying the paper to accompany ... But as I say, it's hard to be the same document from the original cross. I think with the money I can buy a new beautiful medal. What do you think? Maybe I can wait and find a nicer paper perhaps?

Sorry for stealing your time and thanks for all the information I have read

if it was me, I'd probably buy it. IMO award documents are much scarcer than the medals and have a story. Despite prices going up on the more elaborate documents, they all seem to still be under-valued.

At the moment at least, you're pretty safe on most documents, unless the document is a rare design and/or to a scarce unit, service area or action such as anything colonial, air service, u-boat service or Sturmtruppen, for example.

But, if you have your doubts, always post a picture here and ask an opinion.

[Silberstrand]

if it was me, I'd probably buy it. IMO award documents are much scarcer than the medals and have a story. Despite prices going up on the more elaborate documents, they all seem to still be under-valued.

At the moment at least, you're pretty safe on most documents, unless the document is a rare design and/or to a scarce unit, service area or action such as anything colonial, air service, u-boat service or Sturmtruppen, for example.

But, if you have your doubts, always post a picture here and ask an opinion.

Thank you very much for your answer. I have only these photos of the document that you saw in one of my previous comments. If someone see something wrong can tell me, it looks original but I am inexperienced. I guess the price of 26 euros is normal, though perhaps best saved for another medal but a document to complete the EKII 1914 may be fine.