Info on the Austrian Franz-Joseph Order

[landsknechte]

Does anyone have information on the award criteria and award numbers of the Austrian Franz-Joseph Order?

--Chris

[J Howland]

Does anyone have information on the award criteria and award numbers of the Austrian Franz-Joseph Order?

--Chris

It's been years since I collected Austro-Hungarian awards, but as I recall, the FJO was frequently viewed as a "diplomatic" order although there were provisions to award it on the red/white "bravery" ribbon (one that looks like a red ladder) with "war decoration" (some extra green enamel worked into the design) and, sometimes - particularly during WWI - with crossed bronze swords added to the ribbon.

I used to think of the order as an A-H counterpart of the IIIR war merit series, but primarily for the upper levels of society and the civil service. There were look alike, enamel-less low level crosses that were given to soldiers in the field. I always thought, perhaps inaccurately - I admit, that a typical WW I recipient of the FJO would have been a well-born, fairly high ranking member of the quartermaster corps...

Jim

[Glenn2438]

Medical Officers and Intendance Officials

Hi Chris and Jim,

the statutes allowed for the award of the FJO to all classes of society although in practice in peacetime they were primarily awarded to civilians for such achievements as research, development and inventions and distinguished civil service to the state.

During the war most military recipients were medical officers or intendance branch military officials although it was also awarded to commissioned officers for non combat related achievements. For instance one Oberleutnant in der Reserve Wolfgang Graf zu Wolkenstein-Rodenegg was awarded the Commander's Cross on the ribbon of the Military Merit Cross in recognition of Outstanding achievement in Wartime Railway service.

Regards
Glenn

[J Howland]

Good information. Thank you!

Jim

[landsknechte]

Here's the ribbon bar at the root of the question, if it might help to put it into context a little bit better:



(From the thread at http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ad.php?t=58104)

How common of an award was this order?

Thanks,
--Chris

[J Howland]

From looking at the picture, all one can state with assurance is that the man who owned that ribbon bar received some sort of an Austro-Hungarian bravery award during WW I.

I know that there are folk on the imperial forum who have raised the study of imperial medal groupings and ribbon bars to an art form, but, unless you've got paperwork to go with these ribbons, deciding that the last ribbon represents some degree of the FJO is not a leap of faith that I would have immediately made - there were simply too many WWI Austro-Hungarian awards issued on that ribbon between 1914 and 1918 (both with and w/o swords)...

Jim

[landsknechte]

I know that there are folk on the imperial forum who have raised the study of imperial medal groupings and ribbon bars to an art form, but, unless you've got paperwork to go with these ribbons, deciding that the last ribbon represents some degree of the FJO is not a leap of faith that I would have immediately made - there were simply too many WWI Austro-Hungarian awards issued on that ribbon between 1914 and 1918 (both with and w/o swords)...

Jim

I thought that gold swords on this ribbon was exclusive to the Franz-Joseph. Who are the other likely candidates?

--Chris

[J Howland]

All of these (and their subdivisions ) could use the bravery ribbon with or w/o swords: Militarverdienstkreuz; FJO; gold, silver and iron Verdienstkreuz; gold and silver Miltarverdienstmedaille; A/H Ehrenzeichen vom Roten Kreuz (not officially an order, but treated as such).

Don't go wacko over-analyzing the color of the swords on A/H ribbon. The original regs just said "swords" were to be added to the ribbons when awarded for bravery in the field. Most times the ones you see on the full size medals or on ribbon bars are gold or bronze in color. Just like the fact that almost all WW I era manufactured A/H bravery ribbon has shifted in color over the decades from a red ladder on white to a pink one because of the instability of the dyes available in war-time Austria, the color of the metal sword devices you will encounter will have shifted from what it was on the day of award...

Jim

[landsknechte]

All of these (and their subdivisions ) could use the bravery ribbon with or w/o swords: Militarverdienstkreuz; FJO; gold, silver and iron Verdienstkreuz; gold and silver Miltarverdienstmedaille; A/H Ehrenzeichen vom Roten Kreuz (not officially an order, but treated as such).

Don't go wacko over-analyzing the color of the swords on A/H ribbon. The original regs just said "swords" were to be added to the ribbons when awarded for bravery in the field. Most times the ones you see on the full size medals or on ribbon bars are gold or bronze in color. Just like the fact that almost all WW I era manufactured A/H bravery ribbon has shifted in color over the decades from a red ladder on white to a pink one because of the instability of the dyes available in war-time Austria, the color of the metal sword devices you will encounter will have shifted from what it was on the day of award...

Jim

Personally, I'd be more inclined to think that the "wrong" swords were put on the bar for whatever reason - error, vanity (the incorrect gold swords that often appear on Hindenburg Crosses), or shortage - than a drastic shift in the color of the metal. It seems more likely that the finish would tarnish or wear off of a gold device, leaving it looking more bronze - than the other way around.

If the regulations were that vague, then the swords on that ribbon tell you a lot less than they would on the MVK, for example.

[J Howland]

As I remember. all A/H sword devices were basically gold or bronze in color, used interchangeably - they did not use silver swords, even if the color of the medal was silver. I realize that the degree of certain Imperial German and IIIR awards can be determined by the color of the sword device on the ribbon, but I believe that most if not all A/H sword devices started out gold in color, regardless of the level of the award (order or medal, whatever).

Jim

[landsknechte]

As I remember. all A/H sword devices were basically gold or bronze in color, used interchangeably - they did not use silver swords, even if the color of the medal was silver. I realize that the degree of certain Imperial German and IIIR awards can be determined by the color of the sword device on the ribbon, but I believe that most if not all A/H sword devices started out gold in color, regardless of the level of the award (order or medal, whatever).

Jim

This is only my second ribbon bar with anything Austrian on it other than the generic WWI commemorative, so I'm still groping around in the dark on subjects Austro-Hungarian.

Thanks for your help.

--Chris

[Daniel Krause]

Just my 2 cent,

all Austrian swords on the ribbons are golden.
The Austrian war ribbon was used for numberless awards, but to Germans only a few were awarded.
For frontline Officers the initial award was the Military merit cross, then the Orders like Iron crown and Leopold on their own ribbons.
For frontline enlisted men and NCO´s it was the Bravery medal, worn always without swords.
For rear area types as Glenn says, the FJO was the normal award, for lower ranks the fitting Merit cross.
The military merit medal Signum laudis was not given to Germans.

Best regards

Daniel

[stogieman]

And that's where.....

.... the study of ribbon bars brings to light what this is.... if you look at the <i>whole bar</i> as opposed to the ribbon, it is highly unlikely that this ribbon would be anything other than the FJO.
The only other option would be the lesser grades of the Merit Crosses in Gold and Silver and these were infrequently awarded to Germans.
The war ribbon with swords almost always indicates an FJO.

[J Howland]

We'd be talking the lowest, "ritter," degree of the FJO? I've never seen German ribbon bars showing the complex series of miniature insignia that the A/H's used to let a single ribbon bar show that the bearer held higher - or even the highest - levels of an A/H order. That doesn't mean that a German vet wouldn't leap at the chance to display something more complex than just a pair of crossed swords on a ribbon bar if he held a higher degree than just "ritter."

Hmmm. How would the Germans have shown on a ribbon bar that one of their officers had been awarded a pin-back officer's cross of the FJO or a commander's cross - or unlike the Austrians, would they have even bothered?

Jim

PS: One of my favorite portrait photos is in Brian L. Davis German Uniforms book. On page 155, there is a photo of a German general officer (Edmund Glaise von Horstenau) wearing (amongst other stuff) orders and medals from Turkey, Sweden, Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria, Imperial Russia, and Austria. I don't have the sort of reference books at my disposal that would give me his bio, but I've always assumed that he was an Austrian and that the photo postdated the Anschluss and predated the Polish campaign: he's wearing the A/H Iron Crown right after his '14 EK II and the b/w enamelled Marianer Cross further down on the ribbon bar, and I believe you got the Marianer Cross - in essence - for being a very philanthropic Austrian Catholic...

I am, by the way, interested in buying a Marianer Cross! Any body got a surplus one?

[McCulloh]

[QUOTE=Rick Versailles].... the study of ribbon bars brings to light what this is.... if you look at the whole bar as opposed to the ribbon, it is highly unlikely that this ribbon would be anything other than the FJO.

The only other option would be the lesser grades of the Merit Crosses in Gold and Silver and these were infrequently awarded to Germans.

Rick:
I think it depends upon what you mean by "infrequently". The merit crosses were awarded to German NCOs-especially artillery, engineer and railways troops. I've seen the photos.