EKI Cardboard Outer Box

[Brian L.]

I had this posted on e-Stand for less than 30 minutes, when it brought a question that caused me to re-examine and then remove it for discussion here.

I got this with a cased EKI inside. I had another box, which I felt more comfortable about. So, I replaced this one.

Although the carboard material seems correct, what bothers me about it is:

1/ crooked label
2/ poor quality printing on label and the font which seems odd to me as a typographer (it's kind of a bastardized mix of Fraktur and Sütterlin script), although it might be ok.
It's possible that someone scanned the label from somewhere and printed it on a computer printer, which might explain the bluriness and the umlaut connected to, rather than being above the o in öffnen
3/ no seal (usually has a red wax, or paper seal)

4/...and, a gut feeling...Those of you who have been collecting a long time, know what I mean. Even if everything looks possible, or even probable, you get this annoying niggle in the back of your brain that says there's something wrong, especially true when you have the item in your hands and can feel it.

Opinions from the EK crowd and the posting of pics of known genuine boxes for comparison would be appreciated.

***N.B. It's now posted on eBay for sale, albeit without any guarantee, and a 7 day return policy.

[EK Hunter]

Your outer carton is unlike any I have seen before and I too would question its authenticity. I think the concerns you listed are all relevant...all except for the lack of a seal. Here's my outer carton - also without the red seal. I'm told that not all outer carton had seals. Please also compare the printing on the label and the difference in the thickness of the cardboard used in both. Hope this helps.

Best, Alex



[/QUOTE]

[Steve Campbell]

I saw this a few minutes after it was posted and thought the price was excellent, but I had a funny feeling about the lettering. I have one example in my collection which correspondes with other examples I have seen. I am no way an expert on these, but my 2 cents worth is that I saw it for sale cheaper than they usually go for but I did not have a good feeling and passed it up. Again, just an opinion.

[gregM]

I don't care for the looks of the printing on the label.

[Brian L.]

Your outer carton is unlike any I have seen before and I too would question its authenticity. I think the concerns you listed are all relevant...all except for the lack of a seal. Here's my outer carton - also without the red seal. I'm told that not all outer carton had seals. Please also compare the printing on the label and the difference in the thickness of the cardboard used in both. Hope this helps.

Best, Alex

[/QUOTE]

Yours is typical of the most often seen design, and very finely printed.


If you compare yours (authentic) to mine, it is the exact same lettering, except that mine is thicker and blurry. From this, one could surmise that someone scanned an authentic label (such as yours), but either scanned at a low resolution or printed on a low resolution printer which would account for the letters being thicker and filling in. The letters could also have filled in because the paper used is not sized and is too absorbent which as I see now has led to ink bleed. The difference in cardboard thickness doesn't bother me. Although, it's probably a further indication.

My feeling is that mine is 100% a fake. I've lost a bit of money, I guess. But, this is a great learning experience. I'll certainly pay more attention to the details in the future. Given what these are selling for now, it's not surprising that they're being faked. With technology, and in the right hands, it would be easy to fake these so that nobody would doubt them. In light of that, mine is quite sloppy when you really examine it.

********

Heres my other one, which is different from yours: very different (and later) font style, but sharp and easy to read, darker paper on the label and thinner cardboard, but thicker than on yours. It has a seal, as you can see. But, seals are easy to come by. So, that doesn't prove anything.

But, because it is different from yours, does that mean it isn't correct? Given the volume of awards, different official sources of dispensing EKs and the timeline, it seems likely that different styles of boxes were used over time. The font style on yours is very early, of a type used extensively in the 19th century and early 20th. The font on my 2nd box here is a style developed late in the teens. So, logically it could be a late war box.

I'm bothered by the fact that "zu öffnen" is off-centre on my 2nd box. But, it does line up with "von dem". Maybe it was intentional. Although, I'm not sure why a typographer would do that. I certainly wouldn't.

So, I don't know about this one, now, either.

[Don D.]

I'll toss this example into the mix. A standard KO marked cross. The family has marked over the original pencil markings with a felt tip pen.

[saschaw]

bolewts58, I think both of yours are fake, and the 2nd one even a phantasy design I've never seen on authentic ones. Sorry!

[Brian L.]

bolewts58, I think both of yours are fake, and the 2nd one even a phantasy design I've never seen on authentic ones. Sorry!

thanks. I had the same feelings, long before this discussion began. But, I still had to analyze it. Interestingly, the point I made about the font on my 2nd box is true. This is a modernized Jugendstil version of old German script that dates from after 1916. So, whoever made this did some creative thinking and used a WWI period font that was quite trendy in print design at the time.

In the distant past, in my first collecting period, I saw so few of these cartons. 20 years ago they were pricey and extremely hard to find. As large as my Imperial collection was at the time, I dont think I actually ever got a cased EKI with the carton.

With all these Internet auctions more seem to be turning up, and selling for huge sums, which of course leeds to fakes like mine.

After seeing the two real examples, what they are supposed to look like came rushing back to me.

So, this has been a valuable and informative lesson in re-acquainting myself with the details of these boxes.

I do, however feel my credibility as a long-time collector (such as it is) has been taking a hit lately. Interestly, being away from the hobby for 15 years and then coming back to it, I find the quality level and the variety of repros and spurious material alarming. In the past, except for higher-end stuff, particularly orders, it used to be fairly safe collecting Imperial German militaria, as it was relatively easy to spot fakes as original material was comparatively still cheap and easy to come by. Now one has to be extremely careful. There are many more evil people out there intent on deception and also many more permutations and variations of the types of deceptions going on, that really threaten an interesting hobby and our committment as collectors to preserve history.


Anyway, thanks for all the contributions.

Now, I can look for a real carton!

[Don D.]

Amen to that Brian. Here is a starting place to see just how bad it has gotten: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=482701

[Brian L.]

Amen to that Brian. Here is a starting place to see just how bad it has gotten: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=482701

Interestingly the eBay seller "nataliyaa123" has bought stray medals from me. So, I expect to see these turn up on her spurious bars.

She's of course Eastern European. Why is there a disproportionate number of Russians and Eastern Europeans involved in the shadiest aspects of trickery and out-and-out forgery in this hobby? It's a rhetorical question, of course. We all know the answer, but to say it out loud might appear racist.

[Miro O]

Funny, because I am East European, and I never offered fake medal on eBay. But I was allready fooled by honest militaria sellers, that were surely westerners.

Would be better if we will stick to statements and not feelings, because when we talk about feelings, my feeling is that you, honest man, created and used bogus account in the thread about F.A.K.E. Eisernes Halbmond to support your wrong ideas.

Regards

[Don D.]

Please refrain from personal attacks and inflammatory statements.

[RelicHunter]

If you have reservations about the authenticity of something, I don't think its in good form to list something on Ebay. Especially in the "Original Items" category. Even without a guarantee, there is still an implication in your listing.

[Brian L.]

If you have reservations about the authenticity of something, I don't think its in good form to list something on Ebay. Especially in the "Original Items" category. Even without a guarantee, there is still an implication in your listing.

I'm not trying to cheat anyone. I have just put it up for anyone to consider. I'm interested to see what happens.

I give a return on everything which is more than most of the German sellers do.

If someone buys it, and doesn't like it, they can return it.

I actually just sent an item to someone in Germany on spec without receiving payment because I wasn't sure and he wasn't sure. I would probably do the same here, if asked.

[Brian L.]

Funny, because I am East European, and I never offered fake medal on eBay. But I was allready fooled by honest militaria sellers, that were surely westerners.

Would be better if we will stick to statements and not feelings, because when we talk about feelings, my feeling is that you, honest man, created and used bogus account in the thread about F.A.K.E. Eisernes Halbmond to support your wrong ideas.

Regards

To make a statement that many of the current fakers are Eastern European is not to damn a whole people. And you're correct that dishonest dealers exist in the west, as well. They exist everywhere. The boxes in this thread both came from dealers in the US who don't have return policies.

Anyway, relax and stop being so sensitive.

Also insulting me hardly makes your case any stronger.

To suggest I created a bogus account to support the TWM which was not proven fake, by the way is ludicrous. Don't you think the moderators would spot something like that, as our names are registered with the site administrators?

If you are referring to the other poster who was defending the star, as is anyone's right, he is a collector in the US, who has seen the star and believes it genuine.

I don't have an agenda here other than to find the truth, like everyone else. I was just making an observation, when referring to the known fakers on eBay.