Hechtgraue sappeure leutnant

[ccj]

Clarify my statements

Flik,

You're correct. I just hate the unknown. Why would a Beamte have a combat tunic? Someone serving in the "Militarbauingenieure" of Landwehr or "Technische Beamte des Technischen Militarkomitees" would not be in the field would he?
I guess it's possible these types wore pike grey uniforms for service dress but I wouldn't think they would be in the field.


What is the funcition of "Militarbauingenieure" of Landwehr ?

What is the funciton of "Technische Beamte des Technischen Militarkomitees"?

[flik]

Both of these branches were under the ministray of defense so this are by no means "civil" uniforms. I guess it depends on the service/branch ... but most if not all branches (at least officer ranks) of the military had at least two typs of uniform. Waffenrock and a service tunic. Since 1908/9 the service tunic was a pike gray combat jacket. So to answer your question - even military beamte would have one. Look at it as in the Wehrmacht - beamte would have a feldbluse also and would serve in the front.
Dont really know the exact tasks of both branches (did you try internet or AH land forces forum) but it wouldnt be unusual to se these guys at the front. Perhaps not in the first front line, but near enough. I recall sometimes seeing photos of Beamte wearing pistols and such - even some "feldkuraten" had them.

[foersterBerlin]

From a book called "Instruktionsbuch für die Einjährig-Freiwilligen des k.u.k. Heeres":

"Der Militärbaudienst umfasst den Entwurf, die Ausführung, verwaltung und Erhaltung der militärärarischen Baulichkeiten. Er wird getrennt betrieben für die fortifikatorischen und nichtfortifikatorischen Baulichkeiten.
Für ersteren Dienst ist der Geniestab, für letzteres sind besonders vorgebildete Offiziere und Beamte (Ingenieurkorps, MILITÄR-BAUINGENEURE, Militär-Baurechnungsbeamte, Militärbauwerkführer und Militär-Bauwerkmeister) bestimmt."

So in short military construction service was an administrational service who planned, build and cared for all military buildings, f.e. barracks and fortresses. It was devided in defensive or fortress building and on the other hand all other Military buildings.

This tunic is for an official of the second part.
But these guys were no civilians!

So it is a really nice fieldtunic for an officer of one of the military administration branches.

Regards
Stefany

[ccj]

Detail of a soldiers rank. This is most definitely the same as the tunic I posted. A star-rosette combo

This man could be a Beamte who found a supplier of non standard 'pips'

[ccj]

Another...

Does anyone have photos of tunics to post? I'm always interested in seeing tunics, trousers, details of ranks, collars, cuffs, straps, buttons, etc....

[ccj]

From a well known A-H historian.

"it is called a Sternrosette - a combination of both star and rosette introduced just before the war for military officials.. Judging by the colour of the collar patch I say he was a veterinary official in the equivalent rank of a 2nd Liutenant (Untertierarzt)."

I have a friend who also thinks veterinary official.

Neither fellow commented here as I had emailed them asking an opinion.

So, everyone agrees on a Beamte (military official) but we still have debate on branch.

Its wonderful searching for answers. it's tricky business like Flik says.

[Chip M]

Charles,

Here is a page from the A-H Adjustierungsvorschriften circa 1911 that shows the difference between the star vs. the star-rosette. You will notice that the military ranks other than Beamten are stars, while the Beamten have the so-called Sternrosetten.

Chip

[ccj]

Thanks Chip,

I'm convinced this is a Beamte. Now I want to narrow down the branch. I still think the two Czech Austrian officers photos are of Beamte as I see that detail in the images I have. I could be wrong so I'm going to see if I can translate the text that's on bottom of the photos.

[ccj]

Ok, what about these two men? They are apparently wearing the same style rosette as the tunic posted. Are these Beamte troops? I don't tell...

Guys, these two men are wearing star rosettes so what are these men. This is what confuses me. These men aren't wearing regular stars or highly sequined stars but rather a star with a rosette surmounted over the star nice the pike gray so these men are some sort of beamte...

I'M ABOUT READY TO

The diagram for the star-rosettes for a 4 pointed star yet the pike gray tunic has a 6 pointed star-rosette.

99% OF ALL PHOTOS SHOW REGULAR STARS ON TUNIC BUT THESE TO ARE JUST LIKE THE ONES ON THE PIKE GRAY.

[flik]

Well, sad as it is ... its about 10 min. to new year here and I am on the WAF

As for the photos, if you can give me a colour picture i can narrow it down to one or two options ... if not, then you will have to live with beamte period

Ive been looking into the tunic branch question since "Weyns world 2" has not started yet on the TV
I am not shure if they changed the branch colour somewhat before the war (I realy doubt it) but I looked at the "Heer Rangliste" for 1908 and found only two options (didnt check the Lanwehr one). Basicly I would stick to the branches already mentioned based on that its a beamte with gold buttons (rossets) and cherry red velvet. This is important since the regulations clearly state velvet. So, we can debate on the branch colour but velvet is velvet. The best gues if its a Heer tunic is IMO is Technische Beamte des Technischen Militarkommitees (kirschrotem samt und gelben glatten knopfen). Second gues would be Militarintendatur ( karmesinrotem samt+gold buttons) but this does not look like karmin red to me.
The militartierarzliche branch had "krapprot" colour (not velvet) and gold buttons so ...
As said, I didnt look at Landwehr but the Landwehr Militarbauingineure is also a serious contender IMO so its 50% betwen this and the Heer Technische Beamte des Technischen Militarkommitees.
See this link, scroll down to Beamte at page 1187 ... my best gues is at page 1255.
http://www.mlorenz.at/Buecher/schema..._heer_1908.pdf
Welcome to the wonderfull world of "what does this color on the AH combat jacket stands for"

[ccj]

Thanks Flik,

Dont feel bad. I misse last 2-3 new years events by either reading or messing around with my kids. Better studying militaria than drinking in my opinion.

I'm not sure I should keep this tunic. Too much struggle internally about it. I know it's real, there's no doubt but I'm more of a regular army type.

It's cherry red velvet and you are correct, the velvet narrows it greatly.

[foersterBerlin]

I have now looked up in all my refrence books and I think I have found the key what this tunic is.
We have cherry-red velvet collar patches - so Militärbauingenieure or technische Beamte des Militärbau-Komitees.

What we have until now not looked after is the colour of the Rank Stars-rosettes. They are gold from the photos.
The only officials wearing cherry red velvet "Egalisierungsfarbe" and gold coloured star-rosettes are the technische Beamte des Militärbau-Komitees.

Regards
Stefany

[ccj]

So it's not a Vet Dr?

I'm so confused that I think I need to part with tunic.

[foersterBerlin]

No, no vet. Dr !
These had another reddish colour for the collar patches, called "krapprot". It is a lighter shade and the patches were made of cloth and not of velvet.

The tunic belonged to an official who planned where to build military barracks etc. and who had to decide whether to build or not.

Regards
Stefany

[ccj]

Crap red?