Random question... Imperial Era Germans w/ American decorations?

[landsknechte]

Are there any known instances of Imperial-era Germans wearing American decorations? Potential scenarios that come to mind for me might be Franco-Prussian era soldiers that had been "observers" in the American Civil War, or possibly German-American's that immigrated to Germany after the war... Diplomatic types...

No idea if this is total fantasy, but it's a random question that's been bumping around in my head for a while, and I thought I'd throw it out to the authorities here.

--Chris

[stevenn]

yes!!

This may be of some help,but I'm afraid that the information is incomplete .I MAY be able to get the name,but no promises. 20 some years ago I mounted a set of medals for the West German Consulate that had been his grandfather's.Into the huge frame,with the medals I mounted,went 2 photos and documents.The medals were: EK2,1870,noncombattant ribon;Franco-Prussian War medal,Noncomb. and bars (?);Centennial Medal;Landwehr Long Service Cross(before the Centennial Medal);and lastly,American Civil War Medal (greyishblue and black(?) ribbon).
The recipient was medical Dr. that immigrated to the U.S. in the late 1850's and felt it was his obligation to help out during the Civil War.After the war he stayed on in the U.S. until things began to heat up in the Old Country.He moved his family back home and took part in th1870-71 war with France. There was a photo of him in "Union" officers' uniform from the Civil War and a photo of him,with all his medals, from the turn of the century.I still have a piece of the original U.S. ribbon,somewhere.
It was a very interesting group and if I can get a hold of the person who introduced us,I may be able to get the Dr.'s name.

[Tom Y]

If iIm not mistaken the only official US medal before 1917 was the Medal of Honor. Although there were a few Civil War recipients of German birth it's very doubtful tha any later served in the German military.

[landsknechte]

If iIm not mistaken the only official US medal before 1917 was the Medal of Honor. Although there were a few Civil War recipients of German birth it's very doubtful tha any later served in the German military.

Apparently a few of the campaign medals were authorized prior to 1917, but not by much.

(Taken from http://usmilitary.about.com/library/...dal/blcwcm.htm)

5. Background: a. The concept of campaign medals for the Army was first approved by the Assistant Secretary of War and announced in General Orders 4, War Department, dated 11 January 1905 which states "by authority of the President, campaign badges with ribbons will be issued as articles of the uniform to officers and enlisted men in the service to commemorate services which have been or shall hereafter be rendered in campaigns". This order further states that "announcement will be made by the War Department designating campaigns for which will be issued and defining the conditions of the award". The subject of campaign medals was considered; however, the Judge Advocate General of the Army, in his opinion, concluded it was not proper to issue "medals" except by authority of Congress, but it was proper for the President to authorize the issue of "badges" as part of the uniform. b. The first badges authorized under the above order were the Spanish Campaign Badge, Philippine Campaign Badge, and the China Campaign Badge by General Orders 5, War Department, dated 12 January 1905. General Orders 12, War Department, dated 21 January 1907 amended General Orders 5, 12 January 1905, to include authorization for the Civil War Campaign Badge and Indian Campaign Badge. The General Order also stated "Under existing law these badges can only be issued to persons who are now in the military service of the United States or who may enter the service hereafter. Eligibility was extended to those on the retired list by General Orders 129, War Department, dated 13 August 1908, and in case the retired member was deceased, claims by proper legal representatives of such personnel were honored.

Interestingly enough, the article goes on to talk about the fact that Civil War Campaign badge had one ribbon prior to 1913, and another after 1913. The post 1913 ribbon being the blue/gray one you're referring to.

c. The Civil War Campaign Badge was design by Mr. F. D. Millett, a prominent American Artist, and the Chief of Staff, U.S. Army, approved the design and authorized the manufacture of the badge in 1906. The initial contract with a commercial firm was canceled and the design turned over to the U.S. Mint in Philadelphia for manufacture. The initial ribbon design was two bands of red, white, and blue with the red on the outside and the blue bands separated by a thin white stripe in the center. The head of Lincoln was selected because it was the only thing that could be used on the medal without offense to the sentiment then happily prevailing over the whole country in regard to the Civil War. The portrait of Lincoln must be acceptable to everybody, particularly when accompanied by the noble phrase from the Gettysburg oration which so tersely and accurately expresses his attitude during the war. The ribbon was changed in 1913 to half blue (on the left) and half gray.

Conversely, were there any Confederate ribbons?

--Chris

[McCulloh]

There were some recipients of the 1870 campaign medal who immigrated and joined the US army in the 1870s who later received the Indian wars medal. Detlev sold a beautiful 7th cavalry replacement/doc. group similar to this @5 years ago for a mere pittance. There was an article on foreign medal holders of the 7th cavalry in the Greasy Grass Journal @1994 as I remember.
There were also 1870s vets who earned the Phillipenes campaign medal(s). Pvt.(Captain) John Porter Brown, whose memiors I recently read ,wrote of his Sergeant "shmit" who was a Franco-Prussian and Wounded Knee vet.
Lastly, there were Americans who earned the noncom campaign medal with the red cross who later served in the Spanish American war.
Sadly, I have never seen a US group of that era with foreign awards mounted. The medals are all loose-if they are there at all.
(as an aside, there were also a number of US civil war vets who earned the British Crimean,Indian Mutiny and/or Canada medal).
Knowing jeff Floyd, he'll be able to come up with exact details and maybe even a photo or two-he's the expert in this sort of era.

[Bob Lembke]

Officers in two armies

Guys;

There is a non-specific tale in my family history about an ancestor who emigrated from Brandenburg, fought as a New York volunteer in the Civil War (supposedly in a regiment raised by the New York City Turn=Verein), and then went back, and fought in the Franco-Prussian War. I never got anything specific on this, but decades ago I went down to Washington and poked about in Civil War records to pursue this. There were about six ethnic German New York Volunteer regiments in the Civil War, and looking at the rolls it seemed that some of them were traditional politically, and some were "left", probably based on people running away after 1848. (In the former, many officers were "vons", not in the EMs; in the other, all officers were "non-vons", and a few "vons" among the EM.)

One of the German regiments had, as an official name, "Les enfants perdu", or "The Lost Children", in French. Odd, interesting, but hardly impossible. Must be a story there.

There is a book, the citation for which I do not have at hand, written by a Brit officer ca. WW I who had been an officer in the German Army. The source where I heard of this book says that the author said that a German Sergant has as much military training as a Brit leutnant with 5 years' service. The book supposedly is very interesting in its comparison of the two armies.

Bob Lembke

[Dave Danner]

Robert von Massow was a Confederate officer under Col. John S. Mosby. Son of a royal court chamberlain, he has served in the Prussian Army prior to the Civil War. He was seriously wounded at Dranesville on February 22, 1864, ending his Civil War service. He later returned to the Prussian Army. He commanded a corps in the Franco-Prussian War and was later Chief of Cavalry. At the beginning of World War One, he was a General der Kavallerie and was à la suite to the 1. Brandenburgisches Dragoner-Regiment Nr. 2.

The 1914 rank list doesn't show service medals. It would be interesting to see if he wore a Civil War Medal, though.

[Dave Danner]

Johann August Heinrich Heros Von Borcke was a major in the CSA and served as an aide to J.E.B. Stuart.

He was born in 1835 and commissioned in the Prussian Army in 1855.
He was serving in either Brandenburgisches Dragoner-Regiment Nr. 2. or the Gardekürassierregiment (sources differ) when the Civil War began and went to the Confederacy in May 1862. He was also seriously wounded in 1864 and was sent to England on a diplomatic mission to drum up support for the Confederacy. In 1866 he returned to Prussia and served in the Austro-Prussian War. By 1867 he was invalided out of the Army due to his Civil War wounds (he had been shot through the throat and the bullet, deflected downward, was still lodged in his lung). He went to at least one Confederate reunion in 1884 and died in 1895.

[Dave Danner]

Major General Camille Armand Jules Marie, Prince de Polignac, joined the French army in 1853 and served in the Crimean War, winning a commission. He resigned his commission in 1859 and traveled to Central America. In 1861, he joined the Confederate Army, serving under P.G.T. Beauregard and Braxton Bragg. He rose to command a division and was sent to France as a Confederate emissary in 1865. The prince later served as a brigadier general in the Franco-Prussian War.

[McCulloh]

Was not Prince Polignac the illegitimate Grandson of Napoleon 1?
Confederates were not issued the US military "civil war badge" insofar as I know. However, the Confederate vets groups did issue membership badges-quite valuable in their own right today.

[JBFloyd]

You won't find many US groups with foreign awards prior to WWI. You couldn't accept such awards (they were still symbols of monarchy). Also, there was little chance to wear them. While I've seen photos of US soldiers wearing foreign gongs awarded when they were another Army, I've not seen any approval for wear of such things.

I have a group in my collection that has the British Egypt Medal and Khedive's Star to a piper in the Scots Guards who came to the US in the late 1800s and joined the Minnesota National Guard. He became a Distinguished Marksman in Minnesota and added the appropriate badges to his group (although he couldn't wear his British awards in National Guard uniform). I can't find that box right now, but I'll post that at some point.
World War I brought blanket authority the wear foreign awards given for the war and that was followed by general authority to accept foreign awards subject to approval by Congress. This seems still to have been very rarely done, generally only applicable to attaches (who could not turn down foreign awards without risking displeasure of the host government and embarrassment). The attached photo is probably an attache's miniature group (Spanish Campaign Medal; WWI Victory, "Escort" bar; Venezuela Order of the Liberator, knight; Peru Order of the Sun, knight and Ecuador Order of Merit, knight). He was probably assigned to all three nations in his tour.

[Fred Borgmann]

The name

This may be of some help,but I'm afraid that the information is incomplete .I MAY be able to get the name,but no promises. 20 some years ago I mounted a set of medals for the West German Consulate that had been his grandfather's.Into the huge frame,with the medals I mounted,went 2 photos and documents.The medals were: EK2,1870,noncombattant ribon;Franco-Prussian War medal,Noncomb. and bars (?);Centennial Medal;Landwehr Long Service Cross(before the Centennial Medal);and lastly,American Civil War Medal (greyishblue and black(?) ribbon).
The recipient was medical Dr. that immigrated to the U.S. in the late 1850's and felt it was his obligation to help out during the Civil War.After the war he stayed on in the U.S. until things began to heat up in the Old Country.He moved his family back home and took part in th1870-71 war with France. There was a photo of him in "Union" officers' uniform from the Civil War and a photo of him,with all his medals, from the turn of the century.I still have a piece of the original U.S. ribbon,somewhere.
It was a very interesting group and if I can get a hold of the person who introduced us,I may be able to get the Dr.'s name.

The guys name was Achenbach or something like that and the group was featured in The Medal Collector about 20 years ago. Fred