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    #16
    Hello,

    I am a collector of imperial Austrian orders & decorations, so the name of Rothe & Neffe is fairly well known to me.

    They were official producers of orders and decorations to the Imperial Austrian Court and to many foreign courts and governments.

    In my collection, I have (or had) orders -made by Rothe- from Vatican, Persia, Turkey, Mexico, etc., all made before 1918.

    During the decades of the Austro-Hungarian monarchy, they also made orders of the former German states, including the PLM: of course, they have to be considered as private purchase pieces, not being "Probemässig" to the official German production.

    They of course cannot be considered as "copies" or "forgeries".

    Rothe & Neffe continued the production until the 70s of 20th Century, although the quality of finish had a visible decay.

    Very old Rothe-made PLMs are very well finished, with finely chased lettering; the enamel is of a darker shade than its Prussian counterpart; the eagles are made of two halves, soldered to each other. Later pieces, made during the late 1st Republic or post 1945, have a light blue enamel, simpler (although accurate) chasing to the letters and one-piece eagles. The edge of the suspension is often marked with the maker's logo, and austrian silver contents mark: that's why, sometimes, forgerers file the original suspension away. On unmarked pieces the suspension survives, being often signed with spurious Godet marks.

    Rothe & Neffe cannot be considered as forgerers: they were a fully respectable firm of jewellers, with a strong and great tradition.

    Best wishes,

    E.L.

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      #17
      I have nothing intelligent to add here for PlM but I just want to sing with the band and say that I like the thread starters attitude and way of working. Honesty in this business is way too rare nowadays. All the respect to you - I hope can support this kind of business someday by buying somerhing from you.

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        #18
        A question for Elmar Lang (and for the curiosity of all):

        All forms of Rothe PlMs seem to have specifically utilized some lettering/font forms peculiar to Godet, and they also at some point changed their crown style. In some it is seen to be rounded in a fashion more typical of early 1800s pieces in general, and in some, a very "Godet-like" version. Do you know which came first, and/or anything about why the change? Following are two Rothes illustrating these points. The crowns are circled in red to call attention to the different shapes. Note also the marked shift of the "F" toward the right side of the crown (it is not centered beneath it, that is) in the second one, something Godet persistently did. The sloped base on the 'l" in the one, flat in the other, are changes also seen in Godet pieces over time--circled in green. The flat serif at the base of the "M" is also circled in green, and is a persistent trait of Godet fonts. It contrasts with the triangular serif seen on the Wagner versions. The fully cut-out tail feathers are seen in both pieces (circled in yellow , and I suspect the eagles are soldered on. The difference in center width is obvious and has been previously noted, though little commented upon to my knowledge (the narrow waist certainly also typical of a Godet inspiration).







        The second PlM was copied from elsewhere in the forum, I believe Stephen P posted it, and I re-post it here, attributed, for illustration of the comparison. Happy to remove it if he has any objection.

        ***Just to be clear--not claiming these are linked to Godet, aside from Rothe apparently taken by their style! ****

        Been curious about this for a long time...thoughts E.L. or anyone?
        Last edited by Zepenthusiast; 10-24-2011, 08:43 PM.

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          #19
          Hello Elmar

          I know you are a keen and knowledgeable collector of Austrian awards... and a supporter of the so-called 'Rothe' PLM as being potentially of as early as WW1 construction.

          I notice in this Lot http://www.dorotheum.com/en/auction-...le-merite.html from the recent Dorotheum auction, that a 'Rothe' PLM is described by the expert Dr Ludwigstorff as "a replacement piece from the 30's", marked 925 for Sterling Silver and with a 'W' maker mark no-less... but at no point is there any mention of the firm Rothe in his description.

          You are on record as saying..

          Originally posted by Elmar Lang View Post
          .... Very old Rothe-made PLMs are very well finished, with finely chased lettering; the enamel is of a darker shade than its Prussian counterpart; the eagles are made of two halves, soldered to each other. The edge of the suspension is often marked with the maker's logo, and austrian silver contents mark..... Best wishes E.L.
          Do you have any input as to why the Rothe PLMs are routinely seen with the 'W' for Wagner and 'JGuS' for Godet, but never appear (apart from possibly the occasional Rothe marked case) to have been actually marked by Rothe? Can you post an example of the Rothe mark that - as you said - is often seen on the Rothe PLM?

          We call them Rothe's here on the forum, but much like the S&L PLM, I have never seen any proof that these firms are in any way associated with the PLM's they are so publicly associated with.

          Are we merely taking the word of the Rothe sisters that this was their firms product or is there something more concrete that you can advise us of?

          The Rothe PLM in the link sold for over 2000 euro before any fees etc... which I find absolutely ludicrous given the anomalies associated with it - particularly the 'W'. It doesn't even have a typical suspension system - it looks like the ribbon loop is attached directly to the frame?

          What am I missing?

          Thanks for any help Elmar

          Marshall
          Last edited by Biro; 11-19-2011, 10:12 PM.

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            #20
            Cross from link.
            Attached Files

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              #21
              It would appear to be a very thin suspension arch, just peeking out from behind the jump ring to the left, and hidden mostly by the cut-off end of the ring to the right (where it is also just barely visible). The suggested suspension calls to mind that on the "Rothe" type cross Edkins called a "Godet" in his book. Curiously, the crown almost suggests a hybrid between the rounded version seen on the wide-waisted "Rothes" and the very Godet-like version seen in the more common narrow-waisted version...

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                #22
                I am sure Elmar can shed more light on this, but on a hunch, I started searching Austrian silver "city marks," hallmarking where a silverpiece was made. Vienna was indicated by the letter "A" until 1922...when it became "W"... (presumably for "Wien") Hmmm....

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                  #23
                  Originally posted by Zepenthusiast View Post
                  Vienna was indicated by the letter "A" until 1922...when it became "W"... (presumably for "Wien")
                  Maybe that explains the "W" on some of the 1871 Maiden's crosses.

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                    #24
                    Originally posted by gregM View Post
                    Maybe that explains the "W" on some of the 1871 Maiden's crosses.
                    Nice thought Greg but not correct, F&J's were probably not made as late as 1922. The Austrian Silver marks are not engraved like the F&J's W's. I'm 99% sure it stands for Wagner.

                    1922- Austrian Silver marks: http://www.925-1000.com/Faustria_03.html
                    Last edited by Roglebk; 11-23-2011, 03:15 AM.

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                      #25
                      It would be nice to see the maker mark from the PlM auctioned at the Dorotheum, since Austrian city marks seem to typically have an incused surround and the letter raised in relief, whereas the typical fake Wagner mark is either engraved or stamped into the surface with a depressed letter. A proper city mark would help date and locate the cross's origin nicely. Does anyone know if the Dorotheum is open to being contacted with such a request? Elmar?

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