Uniform help

[Tom Y]

I got this Rock to display an 1870 bar and it needs some work. I'd like to do it right,but need some information.
Besides the Düppeler Sturmkreuz and the Treuen Kriegern, the 1870 bars are:
Vionville-Mars LaTour
Gravelotte-St. Privat
Metz
Beaumont
Orleans
1) What Prussian unit could have this combination?

2) What would be the correct shoulderboards? The ones I have on it now have a red underlay.

3)There are holes in the collar and some kind of stiiffener/shoulder pads in the shoulders. Could it be worn by an NCO or officer?

4) I'm going to have to restore the cuffs from scratch. What would be the correct color piping?

[Tony & Kaiser]

The holes are on both sides of the collar? This would indicate that this was originally a Gefreiter (Cpl's) privately purchased Waffenrock. The officer boards on there have been added later. The stiffener/shoulder pads in the shoulders in just a feature of a tailor made private purchase Waffenrock, as is the black
lining.

As far as the cuffs go, buy your shoulder straps or boards first dependant on what rank you want, then make your cuffs. Dependant upon the Regt, the cuffs could be Brandenburg with vertical panels in red, yellow, blue or white and they could be piped in red, yellow, blue or white.
<img src=http://www.kaisersbunker.com/gtp/gtp01bt.jpg>

The cuffs could also be Sachsen pattern for a Sachsen unit,
<img src=http://www.kaisersbunker.com/gtp/gtp01dt.jpg>

or Swedish for an Grenadier regt.
<img src=http://www.kaisersbunker.com/gtp/gtp01ct.jpg>

You also have to be sure that you obtain straps or boards for a Regt that was line and would not carry Garde Litzen on the collar and cuffs.
<img src=http://www.kaisersbunker.com/gtp/gtp10t.jpg>

You can contact me at home anytime to tell you what cuffs etc any Regt should have. T

[Tom Y]

Thanks, Tony. I knew I could count on you You're right about the boards. I added them cause they're the only slipons I have. I'll have to go with the Brandenburg cuffs since the seam on the sleeves are open for 5 in. There are bits of red thread, so they must have been red too. Looks like maybe the buttons were functional.
i'll have to find some NCO slipons. I inherited my father's prejudice against officers

[Tom Y]

While looking for a possible unit I serendipped into this site. http://uk.geocities.com/fpw1870/contents.html Seems to be on-again-off-again due to bandwidth, but worth the effort.

[Brian S]

The Beaumont bar is an odd one for this guy. It narrows it down that he was at least with the 4th Armee during this fight. The other bars are consistent with my great grandfather's 35th Fuesil. Regt.

I can't find a Regmt. with that combo. Have you posted closeups front and back of this one?

[Gerd Becker]

Hi Tom,

like Brian said, the Beaumont-bar narrows it down.
According to an article, i have, the only armies, that were involved in the fightings of Beaumont were:

1. Königlich Bayrisches 1st Army corps, without:
a) 12th company of the Infanterie Leibregiment der 1. ID
b) 2nd battalion of 3rd IR Prinz Karl von Bayern der 2. ID

2. 4th Army corps, without:
a) 10th company of 1st Magdeburgischen IR Nr. 7 ID

3. 12th Königlich Sächsisches Armeecorps, without:
a) 3rd battailion of 4th IR Nr 103 of the 23. ID
b) 2nd and 3rd Kompanie of Pionierbattalion Nr 12

4. 6th Cavalery Division (Only 2nd Reitende Battr. Brandenburgisches Feldart. Reg. Nr. 3)

So he can only be a member of the 4th Army corps.

Hope, this helps.
best,
Gerd

[Brian S]

Hi Tom,

like Brian said, the Beaumont-bar narrows it down.

2. 4th Army corps, without:
a) 10th company of 1st Magdeburgischen IR Nr. 7 ID

Hope, this helps.
best,
Gerd

But now look at those other bars, does that make sense for the 4th Armee or did he probably transfer.

[Tom Y]

Thanks, guys. The Beaumont one was really making me The only hard reference I have is in from 1890 in German and my grasp of the language is sehr schlect. Great engraving of Willi I though

[Gerd Becker]

Hi guys,

Brian, i think, you are right and he transfered.

Tom, this is, what i found:

Vionville-Mars Latour:

A) 1. Armee: Armeeoberkommando


1) 8th Armycorps, from this:

a) Stab der 16. ID

b) 32. Inf. Brig. der 16. ID
c) 2. Rheinisches Husarenreg. Nr. 9 (without 1st Eskadron)
d) 5th and 6th schwere und leichte Bettr. Rheinisches Feld-Art.Reg. Nr.8

B. 2. Army



1) Gardekorps, from this:

a) 3. Gardekavalleriebrigarde

b) 1. Reitende Batterie Garde-Feld-Art.Reg

2) 3rd Armycorps



3) 9th Armycorps, from this:

a) Generalkommando

b) Stab der Großherzoglich Hessischen 25. ID
c) 49. Inf.Brig.(1st Großherzogl. Hess.) without 1st Jägerbatl. of the 25. ID
d) 2. Schlesisches Gren.Reg. Nr. 11 der 18. ID
e) Großherzogl. Hess. 1. Reiterregiment (Garde-Chevauxlegers)
f) Großherzogl. Hess. 1. und 2. schwere und 1. leichte Batterie

4) 10. Armycorps, without:

a) 2. Batl. 8. Westfälisches IR Nr. 57 der 19 ID

b) 1. und 4. Kp. Oldenburgisches IR Nr. 91 der 19. ID
c) 2. Batl. Großherzogl. Braunschweigisches IR Nr. 92 der 20. ID

5) 5. Kavalleriedivisison (without 1. Eskadron Magdeburg Husarenreg. Nr. 10)

6) 6. Kavalleriedivision (without 2nd and 5th Eskadron of the 1. Brandenburgisches Ulanenreg. Nr. 3)

Gravelotte-St. Privat

Das große Hauptquartier
A. 1. Armee: Armeeoberkommando 1


1) 1. Armeekorps, from this:

a) 4. Inf.Brig der 2. ID

b) 3. Eskadron Ostpreußisches Dragonerreg. Nr. 10
c) 6. Leichte Battr. Ostpreußisches Feldart.Reg. Nr. 1

2) 7. Armeekorps

3) 8. Armeekorps
4) 1. Kavalleriedivision

B. 2. Armee: Armeeoberkommando 2
1) Gardekorps (without 1. and 2. Kp 3. Garde Gren.Reg. Königin Elisabeth und die 2. Garde Kav.Brig.)
2) 2. Armeekorps (without 1. Batl. 3. Pommersches IR Nr. 14 der 3. ID)
3) 3. Armeekorps
4) 9. Armeekorps (without 1. Batl. 2. Schlesisches Gren.Reg. Nr. 11 der 18. ID)
5) 10. Armeekorps


6) 12. Armeekorps (Königl. Sächsisches) without:

a) 2. Batl. 7. IR Prinz Georg Nr. 106 der 24. ID

b) 1. Ulanenreg. Nr. 17
c) 2. Ulanenreg. Nr. 18

7) 5. Kavalleriedivision

8) 6. Kavalleriedivision

Metz

1) Armeeoberkommando 1
2) Armeeoberkommando 2
3) 1. Armeekorps
4) 2. Armeekorps
5) 3. Armeekorps
6) 7. Armeekorps
7) 8. Armeekorps
8) 9. Armeekorps
9) 10. Armeekorps
10) 13. Armeekorps
11) 3. Reservedivision (without 2. Eskadron der 2. schweren Reserve-Reiter-Reg.)
12) 1. Kavalleriedivision
13) 3. Kavalleriedivision
14) 1., 2., 3., 4. and 5. Kp. der Hess. Festungs-Art.Abt. Nr. 11
15) 2. und 3. Feldpionier-Kp. des Gardekorps
16) 2., 3. und 4. Kp. des Königl. Sächs. Pionier-Batl. Nr. 12
17) 3. Festungs-Pionier-Kp. des 2. Armeekorps

Beaumont see posting above

Orleans

2. Armee: Armeeoberkommando 2

1) 3. Armeekorps



2) 9. Armeekorps, without:

a) 2. Kp. des Großherzgl. Hess. 3. IR(Leibregiment) der 25. ID

b) 3. Kp. des Großherzgl. Hess. 4. IR der 25. ID
c) 2., 3., und 4. Eskadron des Großherzogl. Hess. 1. Reiter-Reg.
d) 2. Feld-Pionier-Kp.

3) 10. Armeekorps, without:

a) 1. Fülsilierbatl. des 4. Westfälischen IR Nr. 17 der 20. ID

b) 1. und 4. Kp. and 2. Batl. des 7. Westfälischen IR Nr. 56 der 20. ID
c) 1. Batl, 5. und 7. Kp. und das Füsilierbatl. des 3. Hannoverschen IR Nr. 79 der 20. ID
d) 2. Eskadron des 2. Hannoverschen Dragoner-Reg. Nr. 16
e) 3. und 4. leichte Battr. des Hannoverschen Feld-Art.Reg. Nr. 10

4) 6. Kavalleriedivision


"Armeeabteilung": Oberkommando



1) Königl. Bayr. 1. Armeekorps, without:

a) 12. Kp. des Infanterie-Leib-Reg. der 1. ID

b) 2. Batl. des 1. IR König der 1. ID
c) 3. Kp. des 10. IR Prinz Ludwig der 2. ID
d) 3. Kp. des 11. IR v.d.Tann der 1. ID
e) Kartätsch-Battr. des 1. Art.Reg. Prinz Luitpold
f) 1. Kp. Feld-Geniedivision
g) 12. Battr. des 3. Art.Reg Königin Mutter

2) 17. IR, without:

a) 9. Kp des Hanseatischen IR Nr. 76

b) 2. Kp, 2. und 3. Batl des Mecklenburgischen Gren.Reg. Nr. 89
c) 2. Batl des Mecklenburgischen Füsilier-Reg. Nr. 90
d) Stab der 17. Kavalleriebrigarde
e) 1., 2. und 4. Eskadron des 2. Mecklenburg. Dragoner-Reg. Nr. 18
f) 1. und 3. Eskadron des 2. Brandenburg. Ulanen-Reg. Nr. 11
g) Ein Zug der 1. Reitenden Battr. des Schleswig-Holsteinischen Feld-Art.Reg. Nr. 9

3) 22. Infanteriedivision, without:

a) 8. Kp. des 2. Thüringischen IR Nr. 32

b) Füsilierbatl. des 6. Thüringischen IR Nr. 95

4) 2. Kavalleriedivision (without 1. Eskadron des Schles. Ulanen-Reg.Nr.2)


5) 4. Kavalleriedivision (without 1. Eskadron des Westpreussischen Ulanen-Reg. Nr. 1)


Sorry, when i mixed the languages, but i am quite sure, that you understand it though. If not, please ask.

best regards,
Gerd

[Brian S]

Yes, everyone seemed to be having a party at the Metz seige

Gerd, what's the name of your reference please.

[Tom Y]

Thanks, Gerd. It's going to take some digesting, but I think that's everything I needed.

[Gerd Becker]

Yes, everyone seemed to be having a party at the Metz seige

Gerd, what's the name of your reference please.

Brian, thats from Nr. 59 of the German Orden-Militaria-Magazin. You probably know it, its the community-magazine of the BDOS. Author is Dr. Helmut Thum.

best,
Gerd