Red Eagle Order 4th w/Swords

[Bill M]

--I may have the opportunity to acquire this and I figured I'd put it up here and see what you guys think. It's unmarked and going for $650.
--I've got two of these on bars without swords, one is marked between the bottom and left-hand arms, the other is unmarked - so I figure I've a good frame of reference. I still have a question or two....
--Are these (w/swords) found unmarked generally and is there something I should look for regarding the swords and how they are fitted to the piece?
For example, should they be soldered in or would the medallion be slotted to accept the swords? Any pointers regarding this would be welcome. Any views on anything would be appreciated, as a matter of fact.

[Bill M]

...

[Bill M]

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[Gerd Becker]

Bill,

i have seen that cross and i must say, i don´t like it. The eagle is a bit sloppily done and totally asymetric. I don´t think, that this is just caused though a different maker, as all RAO´s i have seen, never had such a sloppy eagle. And shouldn´t the swords be gold? Looks a bit like a casted piece. I would let this pass.

Hope, this helps.

best,
Gerd

[Klaus O.]

Hi Bill,

Gerd had a couple of very good points against your RAO. I have never seen the swords of a RAO being of the same metal color (silver) of the cross. Normally they should be plain gold or at least silver gilted.

I have heard that you should be very very careful about RAO with swords. In many cases they have been added afterwards to upgrade the cross.

Ciao,

Claudio

[Daniel Krause]

nononono Hands away from this!

Swords have to be golden; thats enough to put this in the thrash-box.

Best regards

Daniel

[McCulloh]

wasn't there a BDOS article about fakes of this @5 years ago?

[stogieman]

Concur...

I'd have to agree on all points. I've never seen this piece without golden swords.

[Bobby lee]

Hi guys, I think Medalnet (Andreas) mentioned to me about RAO's /swds with non-gilded swds that were awarded in the last year of the war. My memory may be faulty, but there was something about a few without gilt. I'll see if I can get in touch with him and get his opinion.

[Gerd Becker]

Hi guys, I think Medalnet (Andreas) mentioned to me about RAO's /swds with non-gilded swds that were awarded in the last year of the war. My memory may be faulty, but there was something about a few without gilt. I'll see if I can get in touch with him and get his opinion.

I have heard that as well. But i doubt, this is one of this examples. Alone the sloppy medaillion painting is a red flag. I don´t think, that this piece would ever have passed the quality control.

best,
Gerd

[stogieman]

I don't think so....

... as it's highly improbable that a fellow who won this "award" late in the war would have had only the one piece on a mounted bar....

[Tim Tezer]

Another thing is the cross-hatched handles on the swords. I recently sold a 1st class badge of the RAO that had cross-hatching on the handles, and I was told by both Andreas Schultze-Ising and Andreas Thies (who had an identical piece to mine in one of his auctions) that this style was typical of Friedrich Sedlatzek of Berlin. That would mean a post-WW1 but probably pre-1945 copy. The same thing applies to yours. If you don't mind having a "spangenstuck" copy, then it's OK, but not at that price.

Tim

[Bill M]

--First of all - thank you all. I'll likely be passing on this one.
--I personally didn't like the overall appearance of the metal on this one, but didn't really consider the appearance of the eagle itself as I've seen these range from regal to well, not so much so. I just put this off to varying talents of the artists. The fact that this was alone on a bar struck me as well, but didn't bother me for that fact alone.
--I still do not see so much of a problem with the eagle, though. What don't you guys like about it?
--Here's a few for comparison. The first is from the one we are discussing here - I tried to blow it up a little...

[Bill M]

--From a WW1 bar...

[Bill M]

--From a Franco-Prussian war/late century bar.
--Again, both of these examples are without swords.