Very Disturbing EK Thought

[Eric Stahlhut]

Hi guys,


This hypothetical question has haunted me for years: the 1914 EK was the biggest batch of awarded EKs, with a myriad of producers. As a result, there must be a great deal of EK dies out there. Some are still in use.

How is it possible to distinguish repops made from the original dies?

I know this is a simplisitic(sic) way of posing the question, but I worded it in order to provide room for discussion.


Proceed!

[Eric Stahlhut]

P.S.


I know that people are in fact using old jeweler's tools to "mark" EK2s with rare or previously unknown marks. Quite scary, no?

[George Stimson]

"How is it possible to distinguish repops made from the original dies?"

If they are assembled correctly and properly "aged," I don't think it is possible.

[Dez H]

If they are assembled correctly and properly "aged," I don't think it is possible.

If you have the dies how hard would it be to produce an EK in the first place? Is anyone here a jeweller or had experience with pressing out metal from dies? <O</O

[keifer kahn]

Eric,

How exactly do you know they are still in use?

[Eric Stahlhut]

Eric,

How exactly do you know they are still in use?

Certain 'KO' EK1s are a good example.

[Blitz]

Most disturbing... Never thought about that before. Although it's so obvious.
There is simple way of finding out weither you can tell the difference between a restrike and an original. Eric, if the KO ek1s dies survived both WWs and were used after them, a simple picture comparison should give us some direction. Do you have any pics of them?

[keifer kahn]

Eric,

I asked "how do you know".I didnt ask for examples of item you are suspicious of.

Knowing means you know the individuals names and location.

Lets have the names of the people reusing the dies.

[Chris Boonzaier]

You need a caster AND a stamper... its a lot of work......

[Tiger 1]

I wouldn't worry about it too much as the assembly, fit and finish would require a skilled person to make a passable example. Along with the aging and correct ribbon there are other obstacles that make the profit margins for such an endeavor slim to none.

Just some thoughts,

Tony

[Tim Tezer]

Since 1914 EKs could still be made "officially" in Germany the end of WW2, and it's well known that many 3rd Reich medals were restruck from original dies right after the war, then it's logical to assume that some 1914 pieces were knocked off in the 1940's as well. But nobody was scrutinizing them very well at the time, so quality of finish would be rather poor. I still believe that the only fakers who have made any effort to produce good quality copies of anything as low-priced as a 1914 EK2 are the current fakers in Eastern Europe. They are doing a pretty good job, but they are clearly not using original dies.

EK1's are worth more, so someone may have applied more effort there. If they're really determined to make a 100% exact facsimile of an original, they probably can.

Tim

[Chris_Werner]

But didn't the "transition" EKs, i.e. 1914s made in the same dimensions as 1939s at 44mm superceed the "old" style crosses? The LDO ran things with an iron hand, so why would the manufacturers keep the old dies around when they were forbidden to use them any more?

[Tiger 1]

Chris,

I recently saw a picture of a storage room, if memory serves me right, of Steinhauer & Luck. In it was supposedly over 100,00 dies the company had made over the years. Not all were military related though. It would follow that even if the dies aren't currently used that they are still valuable. I'll try to remember where I saw the picture and let you know.

Tony

[Tim Tezer]

The four classes of fakes

Chris has a good point - any leftover dies would likely have been "1939" style ek's. Also, even though companies like S&L may have had a huge stockpile of old dies, those dies often aren't in serviceable condition. They get cracked, or get rust on the surface, and need some kind of recondition before being called into service again. Fakers would most likely put them to use before making any such repairs, leaving tell-tale signs of later production. But, of course, there is the possibility that they might still be in perfect condition.

Which brings me to my personal definition of the Four Classes of Fakes:

Class 4 fakes: Cheesy repros that even a beginning collector would realize are not original.

Class 3 fakes: Copies that would fool a novice, but any advanced collector would realize that something is amiss, or perhaps would have heard that such fakes exist.

Class 2 fakes: Copies that frequently cost collectors a lot of money, even advanced collectors who let their guard down or who buy them before they have been exposed as fakes in the larger community of collectors.

Class 1 fakes: You will never see a Class 1 fake. At least, you will never know that you have seen it. Nobody will know.

That, unfortunately, is what we face in this hobby.

Tim