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**Rick Research** · 05-19-2004, 07:50 PM

That's KujaTh.

You got a sword, huh? That would date to 1891.

In this case, it would be all but impossible to tell who was the giver and who the recipient, since I have seen s/l used as "TO his dear" OR "FROM his dear" with the names in either order.

In this case, even more initials won't help-- since they both shared the same last one, and I can't find a first name for EITHER field artillery officer.

Maddeningly, Kinitz's Orders Almanac entry obliging lists his birth data as born 20 August 1868 in Frankfurt a/Oder but neglects to list his first NAME!

(He also got a steel China Medal "invisible" in Rank Lists.)

Those

Prussians!!!

**mravery** · 05-19-2004, 08:24 PM

Sword... what sword

Not yet... but I'm working on it (too pricey currently)...

So... Ricky....

Are we saying that the one listed in the 1912 Rangliste is him (I didn't even look up the Kujath name as I figured it was all the same man)... Unless I'm reading my list wrong (which is entierly possible

).. I only see a Lt and a Haupman listed in 1912.

and what is the whole Hannover inscription about..... ?

At least we know he was a Guard unit (as the sword has the star)...

**Andy Baus** · 05-19-2004, 11:21 PM

Originally posted by mravery

Sword... what sword

Not yet... but I'm working on it (too pricey currently)...

So... Ricky....

Are we saying that the one listed in the 1912 Rangliste is him (I didn't even look up the Kujath name as I figured it was all the same man)... Unless I'm reading my list wrong (which is entierly possible

).. I only see a Lt and a Haupman listed in 1912.

and what is the whole Hannover inscription about..... ?

At least we know he was a Guard unit (as the sword has the star)...

Not having seen the sword being discussed, I can add a bit of information concerning two field artillery officers, Hptm Kujath and Hptm. Kinitz, listed in the 1914 Rangliste which might be of some assistance.
Hptm. Hans Kujath was the "staff captain" (senior captain) of Feldartillerie Regt. Nr. 72. According to the Ehrenrangliste of 1926 he died of natural causes on 23 Sep 1918. I got his first name from the 1913 Gotha Genealogical Handbook (Freiherrliches Handbook) p. 877, as it is listed under his wife's entry (Elisabeth Frhr. Schuler von Senden).
Hptm. Kinitz (no first name) was in the Lehr Regt d. Feldart. Schießschule (Instructional regiment of the field artillery school) and became the commander of FAR 503 (as listed in the Ehrenrangliste).
Both men shared the same date of rank as Sek.Lt. 18 Jan 1891, though they were not in the same regiment in 1891. Kinitz was in FAR 9 (Itzehoe) and Kujath in FAR 22 (Münster).

Andy

**Rick Research** · 05-20-2004, 03:22 PM

Good lord, how on earth did you winkle a commoner's name out of the vast tiny Gothic printed Gotha? Don't tell me you've manually indexed everybody on computer?

???

Indeed, neither officer served together. These swords are typical "War Academy" (Ensigns' Schools) mutual presents. Or at least one hopes they were mutual, and one didn't end up with 12 swords while somebody else got none!

Very often we get lucky and one cadet being infantry while another was cavalry etc etc will straighten out who was the recipient, but not here.

Kinitz, who had a VERY nice long career with the Feldartillerie Lehr-Regiment, was

Sekondeleutnant 18.1.91
Premierleutnant/Oberleutnant 189X
Hauptmann ernannt 17.5.01 but permanent seniority 18.7.05 U3u
Major 19.8.14 E
and
char. Oberstleutnant aD

while

Kujath was
Seklt 18.1.91
Oberleutnant 22.5.99 Ji
Hauptmann 27.1.07 E
Major 28.11.14 A

and went out sick in 1917

**mravery** · 05-20-2004, 03:32 PM

Ok... you guys are so good your scaring me !

Great work... Andy and Rick

Cheers
Mark

**Andy Baus** · 05-20-2004, 11:10 PM

Well, actually I have indexed (Microsoft Databases) the 1914 Prussian/Württemberg, Saxon and Bavarian Ranglisten- active, reserve and Landwehr for a total of over 62,000 individuals. With the help of a wide range of sources, I have identified by first name and date of birth 9458 of the 20013 active Prussian/Württemberg officers and an additonal 2023 just by first name. As you know, the Gothas are a tremendous source of data, even for the odd commoner who marries into a family. Using the Gothas I have fully identified 5949 of the 7020 listed noblemen (84%) an another 355 by first name alone. This is the result of over ten years of work, not just entering data but also searching for sources of first names and dates of birth.

Another feature of interest for forum members may be the fact that I have listed all the orders and decorations as reflected in the 1914 Ranglisten. I can search by individual order and combinations of orders. So, I can quickly determine, for example, how many officers had the PRAO4mSchw. Over the years I have helped several collectors identify medal bars in their collections.

I have done the same with the 1923, 1932 and 1939 Ranglisten, though with much less success fully identifying the officers.

So, if you've got questions, chances are good (especially for infantry officers)
I have the answers.

Andy

Originally posted by Rick Lundström

Good lord, how on earth did you winkle a commoner's name out of the vast tiny Gothic printed Gotha? Don't tell me you've manually indexed everybody on computer?

???

Indeed, neither officer served together. These swords are typical "War Academy" (Ensigns' Schools) mutual presents. Or at least one hopes they were mutual, and one didn't end up with 12 swords while somebody else got none!

Very often we get lucky and one cadet being infantry while another was cavalry etc etc will straighten out who was the recipient, but not here.

Kinitz, who had a VERY nice long career with the Feldartillerie Lehr-Regiment, was

Sekondeleutnant 18.1.91
Premierleutnant/Oberleutnant 189X
Hauptmann ernannt 17.5.01 but permanent seniority 18.7.05 U3u
Major 19.8.14 E
and
char. Oberstleutnant aD

while

Kujath was
Seklt 18.1.91
Oberleutnant 22.5.99 Ji
Hauptmann 27.1.07 E
Major 28.11.14 A

and went out sick in 1917

**McCulloh** · 05-21-2004, 06:33 AM

Good stuff! I had this very conversation (about using Excel to do this) with the Ricks in the parking lot at Lowell 2 years ago. The amount of work involved wityh this project must've been ENORMOUS!! Well done.Congratulations.

Anyway, what else do you need to help bolster your data base? Have you looked at the References owned by members thread?
I for one would be happy to xerox and send you what odd bits I have (for the occasional research favour of course).
Again, congrats on a huge undertaking.
Are you a PhD candidate by some chance?

**Andy Baus** · 05-21-2004, 07:15 AM

Thanks! As I mentioned this is the result of work I began in 1993, and there seems to be no end in sight. The most difficult part was typing in all the names, dates of rank, orders/decorations and then I had to create several dozen different sorting criteria to be able to display the information in the same format as reflected in the Ranglisten. This took me over a year just for the Prussian/Württemberg. The Saxon and Bavarian, much few in number, took only a few months each to complete. I suppose that's the beauty of such a project- always more to do, always more books to look for. The hardest part has been to find like-minded individuals with whom to share the interest! That's why I was quite pleased to stumble across this forum.

I only wish I were a Ph.D. candidate, as this information would certainly form the solid basis for any number of dissertations. My college days are 22 years behind me! Thankfully, my wife is tremendously supportive- she often says better the Prussian army than the golf course- at least I am home when I'm working on this project.

I, like you, am always on the look out for Stammlisten or anything else that provides full identifying data. There are a number of Oberstleutnants whom I can not yet identify. I've traced their careers and so can identify which regiments they were assisgned to. I'll post a list of them with assignments in the hope someone might be able to provide a first name and/or date of birth. Any source of names you can recommend would be greatly appreciated!

I'll be happy to assist you in your research- all it takes is a question and I'll dig up what I can.

I have looked at the collective holdings of the forum's members. Quite an impressive range of sources.

Andy

Originally posted by McCulloh

Good stuff! I had this very conversation (about using Excel to do this) with the Ricks in the parking lot at Lowell 2 years ago. The amount of work involved wityh this project must've been ENORMOUS!! Well done.Congratulations.

Anyway, what else do you need to help bolster your data base? Have you looked at the References owned by members thread?
I for one would be happy to xerox and send you what odd bits I have (for the occasional research favour of course).
Again, congrats on a huge undertaking.
Are you a PhD candidate by some chance?

**mravery** · 05-21-2004, 08:29 AM

Hey Andy,

What a fantastic project......

If you ever want to 'web publish' it... I would be more than happy to place a copy on my website......

Cheers
Mark

**Rick Research** · 05-21-2004, 10:50 AM

And how does RICKY search?

I sit here and go through endless pages of medieval Gothic type!!!!!

**Daniel Krause** · 05-21-2004, 04:02 PM

Hi Andy,

I´m simply stunned!!!! I´m doing nearly the same since last year! Of course I´m just at the beginning. At least I know now that 'I´m not the only "Ranklist digitalisation maniac"

Beste Grüße

Daniel

**mravery** · 05-21-2004, 04:10 PM

You boys need to work together so you don't duplicate your efforts.....

**Andy Baus** · 05-21-2004, 10:49 PM

Daniel,

Congratulations- you are at the beginning of a great project! I would be interested knowing how you are creating your database. For the Prussians, I entered the entire Dienstaltersliste for 1914 then had to create a series of "sorts" to arrange the info. I did the same for the Saxon, after copying by hand the Dienstaltersliste from the 1914 Rangliste. That was July 1998 before I ownded a copy! I was able to buy a 1914 Bavarian several years ago and simply entered the info from the book. Over the years, I have addedd additional fields as more information became available.

Are you using a database program or spreadsheet?

Good luck- all you need it time (and a great deal of it), but when you are finished, you'll be amazed at what you have created!

If you have any questions, I'll be happy to help.

mit bestem Gruß,

Andy

As you say, it is also very nice to know there is at least one other person out there who shares this level of interest. Perhaps one day we can meet and exchange stories!

Originally posted by Daniel Krause

Hi Andy,

I´m simply stunned!!!! I´m doing nearly the same since last year! Of course I´m just at the beginning. At least I know now that 'I´m not the only "Ranklist digitalisation maniac"

Beste Grüße

Daniel

**Andy Baus** · 06-08-2017, 07:03 PM

I realize that this thread is over 13 years old, but out of respect to my friend, Rick, I'd like to complete it now. My original answer did not include the first name of Herr Kinitz or his date of birth. Some time ago, I finally found that information.

Franz Kinitz was born 20.08.1868.

Andy

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Kujash S/L Kinitz

Kujash S/L Kinitz

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