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Much That Once Was...A Godet PlM Theory

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    Much That Once Was...A Godet PlM Theory

    "Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it..." JRR Tolkien, from The Lord of the Rings. A veteran of the Somme, I hope he would understand my applying his words to an aspect of the Great War, the experience of which is now fading rapidly out of living memory.

    I think I have solved a puzzle at last, and invite an open-minded, objective look at the evidence. There would seem to be enough to make a good case, and if I am right, it will become easier to obtain more. There is no doubt this will be a controversial theory, but if time proves it correct, you heard it first, here!

    The theory:

    PlMs are grouped into "Official Chancellery" issue versions, the crosses actually awarded by the Prussian State, and private purchase crosses. At least after 1900, the official versions are widely assumed to have been made by Wagner (and/or Friedlander as a subcontractor) with Godet supplying most, if not all, private purchases. These are, most definitely, assumptions, however. I have been able to find no evidence Godet did not supply Chancellery crosses--and it begs the immediate question, why wouldn't they, as a Royal House Jeweler long before Wagner? (Nor have I come across any evidence Wagner did not sell private purchase pieces, though there does not seem to be a known example, one must wonder how it could be known one way or the other at this point.)

    Looking at the question forensically, I think an excellent case can be made Godet not only supplied Orders Chancellery official awards during WWI, but probably did for at least 50 years prior as well. That this has not been recognized photographically, for instance, is simply owing to the assumption "a Godet" must look like the recognized private-purchase type.

    Think, instead, of the EK...a proper EK1 or EK2 can be identified precisely because the official versions had certain expected traits. The same will likely eventually prove true for the PlM: a Chancellery-issue PlM had to meet certain standard/stipulated traits. No one could buy the official version. Anything which was not official, thus had to look different--be instantly recognizable as such. All period photographs of Chancellery awards will thus look very similar, and the details which would point to the manufacturer (which I will be able to show) would in most cases not be discernible without a resolution or detail which is typically lacking.

    The evidence for this theory must start in the mid 1800s. As in previous threads, I would like to use some close-up scans from Stephen Previtera's excellent Prussian Blue, as origin-attributed citations, for this academic purpose. In the hunt for historical truth, I hope Stephen will allow this. In many of these cases, my interpretation of the evidence differs from his. Prussian Blue is in essence a PlM textbook, and like any textbook, the work reflects the author's research, their interpretation of same, and their own beliefs. All of the latter are respected here. I would (again) encourage all interested readers of this thread to obtain a copy of Prussian Blue if you are one of the few who does not already have one.

    #2
    First, from Prussian Blue are two mid-1800s PlMs. One is attributed, based on qualities reflecting latter, marked crosses, as of possible Wagner manufacture:






    Next, is a cross which, based on the indicated findings, I strongly suspect was made by Godet:





    The findings can be easily compared with a more typical Godet-appearing piece:






    I'll let people take a look at these for the moment--much more to come!

    Comment


      #3
      1st "mystery" solution: Franz Josef of Austria's PlM (again, scan close-up from Prussian Blue, p. 208):





      At first glance, doesn't make sense that the leader of Germany's major ally is apparently given a hollow gold PlM in August, 1914, without it matching those given to von Mackensen (Nov. 1914) or von Below (March 1915). My first impression, noting this cross is essentially identical to the postulated Godet mid-1800s version featured above (they are clearly from the same dies, on inspection), was an earlier cross had been "recycled"--perhaps not surprising, as they were property of the State and surrender of the Order on the death of the recipient was expected. However, that still seemed a strange way to honor one's major ally. More logical explanantion: it was in fact a newly minted, official Chancellery Godet (others have remarked on Wilhelm II's preference for Godet's products) at the time of bestowal. The peculiar wear of the cross, resulting in the deformed eagle's head, and to a lesser degree the adjacent arm (on close inspection of the image, easily discernable) makes complete sense when one looks at this classic portrait of the Emperor (Google image search--afraid I don't have the exact website):







      Taken at face value, evidence Godet was the likely producer of a more "Wagner"-like official Chancellery cross from the mid 1800s, at least to late 1914. More importantly, produced in parallel to their more recognized private purchase version. Will touch on the markings, next.

      Comment


        #4
        I'm not much into these plm things, but, don't get this point.

        Originally posted by Zepenthusiast View Post
        No one could buy the official version. Anything which was not official, thus had to look different--be instantly recognizable as such.
        Why should this be the case? I've never heard something like this before, and am in the opinion one could buy statuory awards, or cheaper ones to safe money, or luxury ones if the awarded ones were not nice enough. I don't know why this should not apply to the plm...

        sigpic

        Visit www.woeschler-orden.de, updated each 1st and 15th a month!

        Comment


          #5
          I do follow the discussions around these PLM'S ,,,and ,,

          after all I read I do get worried about all the story's,, theory's and especially about what is not known and what Moore is unknown.
          the so known and unknown pretenders PLM's jubilee ,private purchase and what is Godet or wagner all the other rubbish that is around .

          it seems to me that with these PLM's you spend 15000 Dollar or Moore never knowing what you have in hand

          nasty,
          ,( jubilee ,private purchase , fake , unknown maker) and Moore surprises around the corner.
          no matter how experienced one is
          and it seems to me one can not self study on these to protect yourself
          Oh ,,and I see three PLM's that give me no certainty's about what maker they are or what time frame they are made ...

          I can not use the crosses identification techniques on these PLM'S the way that it wood give me any certainty's at all ..


          so,,,? what is it with these PLM's ?




          regards kay

          Comment


            #6
            Hi Kay

            The discussion that is about to emerge in this thread is no different to the ones that we were having about the 'Rounder' knights crosses a few years ago.

            There are certainly Wagner/Friedlander PLM's that require no debate and there are Godet PLM's that also require no debate. If you are an enthusiast in the discussions about such pieces, you will certainly learn the fingerprints so that a $15000 purchase is not in vain.

            Conversely, there are PLM's that have question marks over them and the owners of these PLM's - as is there right- will make a case for them and others will make a case against them.

            It's these discussions that not only make this forum fun, but that ultimately - we hope - bring out the truth one way or another.

            I personally encourage these owners ( such as Jim) to make a case just as he will encourage others to rebut it.

            That's the way we get things done here as you know.



            Marshall
            Last edited by Biro; 04-16-2011, 06:29 AM.

            Comment


              #7
              I for one, enjoy these PLM discussions. I doubt I will ever be able to own
              an original but I do like learning all of the little details involved in the
              research.----------as long as they do not degrade to the point of name
              calling and mud slinging like what happened in the RK debates.

              Let the games begin

              Comment


                #8
                Thanks Greg, Marshall, Saschaw and Kay for the comments--very much appreciate those supportive of inquiry and exploration, and I also appreciate Kay's frustration! It is some of my own desire to break through the latter which has compelled me to keep delving and searching. Can't say how much it has been fun to find even little clues, going over the same pictures again and again (to the point my wife is convinced I'm insane). They are so often there...but you have to look at the same thing from a different perspective or mindset.

                I should be more specific on citing page numbers and attributions, but I am trying to avoid really long-winded posts and stay as focused as possible, letting the images speak for themselves. All of what I have put in this thread so far are pieces from the pages of Prussian Blue, and the dating (and owner) of the Wagner-attributed piece to Col. von Wedell, 1866, is established in the book. It is nearly identical to the PlM of Wilhelm I, also to be found in the same chapter. The possible Godet piece is dated accordingly, because of its overall features (hollow gold, proportions, etc.) but is not attributed. It is, as noted, essentially identical to Emperor Franz Josef's PlM dated to 1914, though, and while one might argue there is no certainty the un-attributed cross is older than 1900, there is also still no doubt it is a hollow gold, 1914 or earlier version, with attributes making it almost certainly an original piece made from the same dies and manufacturer as that given to Franz Josef. In other words, the hints its a hollow Godet creation still hold up.

                Saschaw, I agree my statement about "buying the official version" needs clarification. What I meant was, no matter how finely made a private purchase (of any award), it was never, itself, an official Chancellery piece. For an order of the importance of the Pour le Merite, it seems some effort was made to ensure they could be distinguished.

                Comment


                  #9
                  My thinking about those distinctions, Saschaw, was much influenced by your own comment about EKs from August of 2010:

                  I know there are 500 marks. I just pointed out they should be post-1918, if I'm not mistaken 800 was a limit in Imperial days. I well might be...

                  Most of unmarked crosses though are silver, without any doubt. A silver content mark was not necessary - not even usual - on an awarded award.

                  Noticed you see most silver marks on private purchased awards, or on such that are e. g. gilt, to be not mistaken with the real gold ones?
                  I understand your point was about a lack of markings being necessary on an offical EK--the State not having to prove the quality of what it was bestowing--but it opened up my mind to the idea that in some cases, the lack of markings, or very discreet markings, might be evidence of an officially presented award rather than necessarily a disqualification. This is dangerous territory, but if it simply were true--and the possibility is very real--it's fair to weigh the implications.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Mhh, now you beat me with my own words.

                    Honestly, I do not know what is fact. But though I doubt there must have been differences between an awarded and a bought plm in pre- or WW1 era, as long as the materials were the right ones. A gold one is a gold one, and I do not see a necessity a private purchased (real gold!) cross shouldn't be the same as an awarded one. I'm in the opinion they were the same, if made by the same maker. Why should a maker be forced(!) to have two dies of one award? Luxus expra pieces do qualify for "low" awards that need to be "pimped up", but not for a plm.

                    Maybe our Prussian collectors have an opinion - or even some facts - in this matter?!
                    sigpic

                    Visit www.woeschler-orden.de, updated each 1st and 15th a month!

                    Comment


                      #11
                      For ease of reference, here is the Godet "poster" of awards, stated to be circa 1914, originally posted by Dave Danner and accessible by link www.altearmee.de/ordenteil1.jpg






                      Here is another example of the power of "perspective"--at first glance, yet more "evidence" that in 1914 Godet only made a "typical" Godet PlM. But what is interesting isn't only what is there, but what isn't there. There is a Fürstentum Hohenzollern house order, but where are all the other variations of the HOH--the Royal versions? We know Godet made them, right? Why aren't they there...unless there was no point in advertising something one couldn't buy, as a possibility. I do not pretend to know if you could or couldn't private-purchase your own HOH copy back then, perhaps one of you know, but the possibility Godet (or anyone's) catalogs only ever show what was then available for private purchase could explain a lot...

                      I know this may seem like a lot of Sherlock Holmes-ian mumbo-jumbo, but please don't just write it off.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I'm in the opinion they were the same, if made by the same maker. Why should a maker be forced(!) to have two dies of one award? Luxus expra pieces do qualify for "low" awards that need to be "pimped up", but not for a plm.

                        I wouldn't say "forced" to have two dies, Saschaw, rather "privileged" to have them. For those who preferred the somewhat more ornate and weighty style of the private purchase Godet, it made it desirable to buy one (and I'd imagine pay quite a sum, back then, to do so) since--in contrast--you couldn't be awarded one!!

                        Would really love to hear from the Prussian collectors--I often wonder how much is known/researched which is not readily available in the English language forums and literature.
                        Last edited by Zepenthusiast; 04-16-2011, 01:01 PM.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by saschaw View Post
                          Maybe our Prussian collectors have an opinion - or even some facts - in this matter?!
                          I'm not sure -- I think the differences between the Godet PLM and the standard ones are more due to Godet's propensity to individuate their designs rather than any mandate that private pieces look different from award pieces. We can see, in many, many different awards, both issue and purchase types, that Godet preferred to put their own "stamp" on their designs. The examples are too many to enumerate, but here are a few obvious ones: sword hilts, red eagle painting, crown and cypher design on the backs of RAO4s, Crown Order sides, first class Prussian Red Cross medal, any Prussian breaststars, even the Type B 1870 EK core, which is a suspected Godet design. This is something I first learned from reading Mike Estelmann's 1870 EK2 article from the BDOS journal. Since then I have noticed it over, and over, and over again: Godet pieces look different than others, probably as a matter of pride (or so I suspect), and this is one reason I find the company so interesting. But I think it's a Godet thing, not a private/issue thing.

                          But let's see what evidence appears here. I remain teachable.
                          Best regards,
                          Streptile

                          Looking for ROUND BUTTON 1939 EK1 Spange cases (LDO or PKZ)

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Hi Trevor,

                            I think what you are saying fits in very well with the thesis of this thread: that Godet's "fingerprints" are all over pieces they made, precisely because the firm represented artists with justifiable pride in their history and talent. The extension is to consider that the leeway allowed in artistic license, for any given award, probably had to reflect Chancellery requirements on the one hand and personal tastes (and budgets) on the other (for private purchases). A private purchase might reflect a desire for higher quality materials after 1916, in particular, but before then would have been motivated by artistic style alone or simply the need for an additional copy, presumably. The private purchase item might aim to be distinctive enough to attract the buyer, yet needed to be recognizable enough not to be a deterrence.

                            My guess is the leeway for a PlM made to Chancellery specifications was a bit more limited, but not so much that each jeweler didn't make sure their work could be recognized, even without a maker mark!

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Here is a close up of the suspension markings on the two postulated Chancellery-issue, hollow gold Godets, from page 369 of Prussian Blue, where they ended up together as of unknown attribution:






                              The similarity of the numbering style is clear, and it is also interesting to perceive each numeral appears to have been formed from a series of sub-component strikes. This will have implications to be discussed later in this thread, but one can see how the top of a "7" becomes the top of one form of "3", with a different lower-half extension. While this may have resulted from a convention in making printing press type, leading to a font having such characteristics, the lower version is much more convincingly numerals formed from less carefully coordinated components. The "3"s do not even match, precisely.

                              The number of the lower cross (that belonging to Franz Josef) has substantially mor digits, perhaps supporting the concept it was made at a later date (Previtera attributing the upper one to approximately 1866, based on his research), if these in fact represent serial numbers of some kind.

                              Comment

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