against all opinions

[streptile]

to my surprise to ,the 1957 ér i have is full silver ,,i tested it .

Please post this one in the 57er forum. This would be the first ever known example, to my knowledge.

[morel5000]

"fart in your general direction"

I use that line on parties and on other social events. When people smile I now they love Monty Python and we'll have a sense of humor in common!
+ we are talking about the holy grail here

The "fake" is photographed in the Royal Museum of the Armed forces and military history in Brussels;

http://www.klm-mra.be/

Very nice collection and free entrance and parking (at least 2 years ago)!

Best regards,
Michel

[Montgomery Burns]

1. All 3 cores looks similar but the pics are not good enough to draw the conclusion that they match eachother.

2. All 3 frames looks similar but there is also differencies between Kays 2 crosses and the one in the book, again the pics are not good enough.

3. How a die stamped metal surface will look in under a microscope depends on many variables. For example oxidation, wear, mold material, post processing like polishing etc. One can not draw a conclusion about what timeperiod a cross where manufactured in based on microscopic study of the surface.


Just to make one thing clear:

No Silversmith or any other knowledgable metal worker in any time period would cast an item like the frames of an EK. Even all "later manufactured" one piece crosses are die stamped, exept for the post WWII Spanish made -39 EK1's and EK2's



For what it's worth believe the crosses is at least made before the 1860's. Base that on the "overall feeling" and the word of a fellow experienced collector who had the opportunity to handle them. It's hard to beat that "in hand" feeling.

A very good response ,,I like it ,and throe in its logic ,,and very experienced

and I will respond to it as well tomorrow ....

hoping to explain Moore wy microscope picture are usable ..( in this case )
there is only a different approach needed off how to use it in logic and it becomes usable .


regards kay

[streptile]

1. All 3 cores looks similar but the pics are not good enough to draw the conclusion that they match eachother.

There are two accepted cores for award-period 1813 EK2s. Both Kay's crosses have one type (serif date), and the book shows the other type (sans-serif date). So the core does not match the one in the book. But it does have a core type that is accepted as a good one.

[Tiger 1]

it also told me that silver off the old was very expensive and valuable and hard to produce from the sources that there where available in the old day's
.

also different composition ...

in 1813 silver wood not be so pure as modern time .

also the proses of melting an forming the silver wood leave periodical manufacture traces that are typical fore the period .


so ,,,under a microscope an 1813 silver frame wood look different then a 1957 produced ek ...

and two silver ek's from 1813 must have simultaneity's under the microscope...

here the ek2 1813 with COA from Detlev Nieman that I took as starting point .


forget the scratches ,,,,


air bubbles ,,dark UN regularly spots
.

Kay,

Silversmithing as well as goldsmithing are very old metal crafts going back to the ancient times of the pharoes.

Silver as well as gold, copper and iron are base metals. Being base metals they are pure in there natural state and are on the table of elements.

When pure silver is alloyed with a small percentage of copper it becomes a harder metal than in it's natural state. For example 92.5% silver and 7.5% copper alloy is .925 fine silver or is known in the English speaking world as 'sterling silver'.

In the same vein, pure gold is 24 karat. In it's natural state gold is too soft for daily usage. Therefore it is alloyed with other metals like copper, nickle,etc. to mke it more durable.

Copper is the base metal for brasses and bronzes, again depending on the of percentages of tin and/or zinc alloyed with the base copper.

Iron in it's smelted form is plagued by brittleness if not properly cooled and stress relieved. Again, when carbon is mixed with the base iron and smelted again the result is an alloy we know as carbon steel.

Now Kay, these wonders of metal smithing have been known to mankind for centuries BC.

It is good and well to take a risk when you find something that stirs your juices as a collector. Having said that I believe a collector should do a lot of homework grounded in fact and established knowledge before postulating a theory that would be plausible and sound.

I applaude your sense of daring and your sticking to your guns in what you wish to be accepted as true. But, until a careful study based on established facts is done wishing something to be good doesn't necessarily make it so.

Some more facts that would be of more value initially than the silver composition would be the height and width dimensions as well as the weight of these crosses in grams. The reason I asked for these before is that there are accepted sizes and weights in various publications long before collecting became so popular with the internet.

All the best,

Tony

[Tiger 1]

Forgot to mention that while silver has had an intrinsic value thru out mankind's use of it. Silver while valuable to a point was not really that rare. Afterall coins have been minted thru out the civilized ages going back to antiquity.

All the best,

Tony

[Montgomery Burns]

Kay,

Silversmithing as well as goldsmithing are very old metal crafts going back to the ancient times of the pharoes.

Silver as well as gold, copper and iron are base metals. Being base metals they are pure in there natural state and are on the table of elements.

When pure silver is alloyed with a small percentage of copper it becomes a harder metal than in it's natural state. For example 92.5% silver and 7.5% copper alloy is .925 fine silver or is known in the English speaking world as 'sterling silver'.

In the same vein, pure gold is 24 karat. In it's natural state gold is too soft for daily usage. Therefore it is alloyed with other metals like copper, nickle,etc. to mke it more durable.

Copper is the base metal for brasses and bronzes, again depending on the of percentages of tin and/or zinc alloyed with the base copper.

Iron in it's smelted form is plagued by brittleness if not properly cooled and stress relieved. Again, when carbon is mixed with the base iron and smelted again the result is an alloy we know as carbon steel.

Now Kay, these wonders of metal smithing have been known to mankind for centuries BC.

It is good and well to take a risk when you find something that stirs your juices as a collector. Having said that I believe a collector should do a lot of homework grounded in fact and established knowledge before postulating a theory that would be plausible and sound.

I applaude your sense of daring and your sticking to your guns in what you wish to be accepted as true. But, until a careful study based on established facts is done wishing something to be good doesn't necessarily make it so.

Some more facts that would be of more value initially than the silver composition would be the height and width dimensions as well as the weight of these crosses in grams. The reason I asked for these before is that there are accepted sizes and weights in various publications long before collecting became so popular with the internet.

All the best,

Tony

Tony ,,,your point off view is to basic and to 1900 fore me .

,,,,by God ,,if it was so easy to use silver and IRON back in 1800 ,,,
the Iron cross 1813 ( old battered garage productions ) wood look a bit different ,,


but yes ,,,,I stick to it ,,,

as there is one fact you or anybody else can explain or redirect or made wrong and untrue...
that is my earlier comment .
,what is the logic off a fake ek,, with unknown frame anomaly's

pointing out unknown frame anomalies ( discovery's ) on original Iron crosses ?

what is the point off a fake ek with unknown anomalies at all . ?

I rely think we have here a cross off later date but still in the era off 1813 / 1820 ...


but I admitt I am only on the beginning off my 1813 research adventure ,,,that will hopefully bring me to the truth in all this .







.

[Montgomery Burns]

A very good response ,,I like it ,and throe in its logic ,,and very experienced

and I will respond to it as well tomorrow ....

hoping to explain Moore wy microscope picture are usable ..( in this case )
there is only a different approach needed off how to use it in logic and it becomes usable .


regards kay

first off all almost all experience we have is based on visual aspects . Little is periodical documented .

so if a cross is in your hand, lets say a 1939 ek ,,,,you look fore .

maker marks
soldering .
damage
replacents
aging
patina
material
frame characteristics
core characteristics .
weight
and measurements .

and so you look fore identifiable producers fingerprints so to speak ,

but if you go back in time a lot off these points are no longer off help .

lets say 1914...

you will see that

material
frame characteristics
core characteristics .
weight
and measurements .

will loose they're value as reliable identification in many ( Most ) cases .

go back to 1870 ,,,same thing ....even worse as only two makers are accepted as period 1870 1880 maybe 1890 ...and
frame characteristics
core characteristics .
weight
and measurements .

not documented or investigated

if you go to 1813 its becoming a mess

maker marks ?,,,,non existent
soldering ? . a complete amateur mess in most cases
damage ?,,well we can still see that Moore or less
replacements ?,, original mountings are looking as replacements
aging ?,,,,,we can sure say they are all aged
patina ? ,,,a lot off them don't have that ,( Nickel,lead / silver alloy ? ),,strange collaring there to some time
material >?,,we don't know what silver alloy they used
frame characteristics ? ,,lost throe ageing an regimental inheritances
core characteristics ? .iron casting was bad in a lot off cases ,,no help there if you got the wrong type .
weight ?,,hand crafted ,,,so what do you want ?
and measurements ?. well it shows the makers did not care in a lot off cases .



so ? what do we know ?

if you go deeper in to the subject 1813 you will discover a lot off ek 1813 is laughing at us as it is a new riddle without any identification to its maker or production methods

agreed,,, some production method's used can be identified,,

but that is about it ..

and books off people claming to know what is original or not ,,,some sources with so calles original items
seem to be legitimate like Musea and musea-alike organisations..
very old private collections ...books and books with clames off originality

but no technical base .

so what ever we Moore prestigious collectors do think can claim on originality ,,is based on ,,,,,,,????

there was my starting point









.

[Montgomery Burns]

there is an empty 1813 space ,,

and I want to put an original ek 1813 in it ....how can I do that ?



so ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I went fore period technical books ..


and an anniversary book off the Krupp imperial 1912

crupps book claiming the beginning around 1811 with an German region that was not the Iron Juggernaut it is these day's ..
but an economic struggling region departed in camps and occupied regions ,,,
industry's where depended on iron that came from from England ,,,,as it was holding the quality out casting the German Iron in quality .

did not came easy as Napoleon blocked trade between England and the German region...
(smuggler time especially in Holland)

there was iron Industry ,,but low grade and not all to much off higher quality .

that ended after Napoleon was defeated .and English high quality Iron came in freely

so two thing I can make from this ...

bad detail and shape off iron core's fore the ek 1813 are plausible ,,,,due bad quality off iron available .

and after 1813/1814 better detail and quality off those core's are plausible to ,,( imported English Iron )

.

[Montgomery Burns]

so I was looking at the iron cores off the medals shown at the Holy grail Club
and could see that those iron crosses had what was needed fore me to be an example off originality ,,

those core's I was looking fore and referring to as original ....

only some off them had the detail quality off Iron crosses off 1870 and that was bit odd...

until I found a book off 1860 about iron casting off the time ..
it was holding so much technical info it was breath taking ...
there is so so much Moore involved to casting good Iron cores ...
but ,,don't mistake 1860 with 2011, because you don't know what your talking about

don't want to go in detail here ,,but at about 1860 the Iron Industry off the German region was ready to become a big player ...
so ,,,1863 celebrations about the great 1813 War where going on ...

and so there is a good possibility

that LOW quality IRON CROSSES off the early time 1813 where replaced fore the celebrations with high quality iron crosses off the 1860 time ,,,(not to speak about repairs)

concerning the book ,,,these replacements wood be almost as good in iron core and detail as the 1870 crosses .

so I even could except the better detailed 1813 core'

s

[Montgomery Burns]

as fore the frame ....

I know from a befriended traditional jeweller that in the old day's all sorts off metal could be mixed with silver ...
nickel is on off them brass was preferred throe the ages

that changed as regulation came in Moore and Moore about the alloying off silver


but I found that old books not giving much away about silver frames or the production off them ....

only that moulded silver gives away a lot off escaping air by bubbles in the material as it cools...so

not much here ,,,

so I had to look closer to an semi original ...I had


so here the microscope came in

moore to come ,,I have to go to work

[Tiger 1]

but ,,don't mistake 1860 with 2011, because you don't know what your talking about

so ,,,1863 celebrations about the great 1813 War where going on ...

s

Kay,

You write and write and write about what you know is right. But I'm a bit puzzled why you avoid giving the dimensions and weights of these EKs? It's a simple question so we can build on some facts and not just personal beliefs and wishes.

Secondly, I'm curious about the 1863 celebrations held in Germany at that time. Were these celebrations nation wide?

Lastly, I'll be the first to say that I don't know everything about EKs because I certainly don't. But I have been a student and collector of them with a passion for a while.

So if you would humor me, could you post the dimensions and the weghts of your crosses so we all can learn and add to our collective knowledge?

Thanks in advance.

Tony

[Montgomery Burns]

Kay,

You write and write and write about what you know is right. But I'm a bit puzzled why you avoid giving the dimensions and weights of these EKs? It's a simple question so we can build on some facts and not just personal beliefs and wishes.

Secondly, I'm curious about the 1863 celebrations held in Germany at that time. Were these celebrations nation wide?

Lastly, I'll be the first to say that I don't know everything about EKs because I certainly don't. But I have been a student and collector of them with a passion for a while.

So if you would humor me, could you post the dimensions and the weghts of your crosses so we all can learn and add to our collective knowledge?

Thanks in advance.

Tony

TONY ,,,NO OFFENCE BUT ,,,,,,

SCROLL A LITTLE BACK,,,,,,,,, START READING SERIOUSLY.

they are there


regards kay

.

[Montgomery Burns]

here I found some very helpful books ...

it describing a lot off the history off the ( dressed in green ) freiwillige Jäger ,,,and free forces added to the prussian Army .
and sure gives numbers .
about the organisations that kept the 1813 remembrance alive

the second is specified to the Iron cross ,,,
and confirmed the facts that there were indeed very much problems with the production off Iron crosses ,,
Iron core wise and especially with the silver frame ...

Moore importantly 90 crosses delivered in April where not approved by the King ...( don't know where they went ? )
at August ,,Carl von Meklenburg came with Iron casted model that was approved by the King ..

they confirmed what was already to find in specialised ek books written earlier,,
so it is correct ,,,,,in some way's

[Montgomery Burns]

remembrance off the iron cross founding ...

17 off march 1863 Berlin,,,, 2400 knights off the iron Cross still present

the last off the 16000 knights

,