against all opinions

[Montgomery Burns]

against all opinions I did buy this ek 1813 ..

sure it has being voted in to the fake category throe a poll
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...hlight=ek+1813

but now as i can compare it to my first ek 1813 with COA fromm Detlef Niemann ..

I can say that both crosses hold the same manufacturing signs and mark ,,that are unknown to the community off WAF...

overlooked as they are almost invisible and are in my opinion a unknown soldering manufacturing method .

that sure is not known to fakers and to far away in fantasy about them,,,, to even try to copy

but to show you all that I am not only defending this cross fore the fun , I wanting you all to know its in my collection now ....


enjoy the pictures

PS not the same frames ....two different makers ....one off them un worn ....

but as I said ,,, unknown manufacturing marks are the thing here .

.

[VtwinVince]

Aha, that one again. Lots of discussion about that frame. The cores do look very similar.

[Don D.]

Some days you have to go with your convictions.

[Roglebk]

A unworn 1813 EKII?

Please enlighten us about the manufacturing technique!

[Tiger 1]

I'm very curious about a few questions that I can't seem to answer.

What are the height and width dimensions?

What does this cross weigh in grams?

Where is the stepped core?

How does one square an almost 200 year old medal (ok, let's say 180 years old) that shows no age that even a well kept item would naturally show?

Maybe the core matches some other EK with someone elses 'opinion' of autheticity who had a monetary interest at one time to do so, who happens to be retired now?

Lastly it is very difficult to square this type of cross with those shown in the prewar Aurich collection as shown in Heyde's book?

I don't want to be a killjoy, but there are many unanswered questions about a fairly rare decoration of a type not seen earlier that our common collector era.

Just some thoughts from an old school collector of EK's.

Tony

[Don D.]

SEM testing would determine if they are the same.

[Montgomery Burns]

I'm very curious about a few questions that I can't seem to answer.

What are the height and width dimensions?

What does this cross weigh in grams?

Where is the stepped core?

How does one square an almost 200 year old medal (ok, let's say 180 years old) that shows no age that even a well kept item would naturally show?

Maybe the core matches some other EK with someone elses 'opinion' of autheticity who had a monetary interest at one time to do so, who happens to be retired now?

Lastly it is very difficult to square this type of cross with those shown in the prewar Aurich collection as shown in Heyde's book?

I don't want to be a killjoy, but there are many unanswered questions about a fairly rare decoration of a type not seen earlier that our common collector era.

Just some thoughts from an old school collector of EK's.

Tony

hy Tony ,,,nice you stepping in .

first problem here is ,,

that the collectors world is to much fixated ,,or has a obsession with fake productions...

second problem is

collectors world is right to have a fixation on fakes ,,the obsession is justified .

A problem here is language....

most do not know how to read old style German ..
therefore don't buy ,,lets say anniversary books off the grate war 1813 from 1913 .

I do ,,and I can tell you out there there are hundreds off those kind off books ,,,
every part off the kings army seem to have such a book .
dedicated to the region they came from,,in combination with propaganda and patriotism .

I have such a book.

and beside extensive disgusting patriotic bragging.
it holds also good information

it shows that associations off old fighters where active in to late 1880 ,,,celebrating yearly the war 1813 ,,
a dosen or so associations where active in Germany .

and the party they had was extreme patriotic decadence ...
in sort off halls off fame,walls decorated with all sort off plunder ,medals ,spoils off war ....
even a sort off table monument made out off captured guns .

organised in the out most decadence by our standards
and kept alive by high ranking officers ....who had the money fore such things ...as a train ticked was already not payable fore the common farmer / former soldier...

THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME A REALISED THAT THESE GUY'S WOOD NOT WALK AROUND IN 60 YEAR OLD UNIFORMS AND BATTERED MEDALS DUE REGIMENTAL INHERITANCE

THERE IS A BIG CHANCE 1813 MEDALS WHERE STILL PRODUCED WITH REASONABLE NUMBERS 1860/1880 .

WAIT ,,MOORE TO COME





.

[Montgomery Burns]

yes I went looking fore period pictures .


and I found a patriotic book 1912
where a old member /fighter/ family did hand out his old medal to be photographed and printed in the book .


that ek2 was such a out most frame variant that ,,

if that ek was the definition off an ek 1813
all others here http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...hlight=ek+1813 wood be horrible fake;s .

a 3 stepped silver frame

that was the second time I realised I was on the right track ...


.

[Montgomery Burns]

so ,,,wen I first saw the ek with the strange frame I was looking fore the possibility that it was some variant like in the book ...


as I do have the same ek core,,, with expertise from Detlef Nieman I was surprised to see the same frame markings on my cross .
only polished away ,,
even the 2 round spots are on my cross ,,a needed real magnification to find that out .

al do the frame is not the same ...it convinced me together with the overall look and info I already had .
and I knew I wood put it under the microscope and wood see if it wood be a modern fake .

so

wait picture comming















.

[Montgomery Burns]

Again a period book informed me about the jewellers work off the old day's ...AND THE POSITION IN SOCIETY.


the jewellers job was not only to make nice medals ,,

but fuel the need off table silver (also gold ) table decorations and jewellery and religious artefacts off silver in the 1800 ..

that in turn became the basic treasury off church and nobles
to,, ,(next to money and trade ) finance costly adventures ,,,as the richest off them all had stocked these silver and jewellery in giant treasury rooms ...
that in turn became plunder off victorious army's ,,on the field and in city;s and in captures mansions off the nobles and kings .

AND ,,,WHAT VICTORIOUS GENERALS WHERE COUNTING AND HOPING ON,,,NEXT TO ONLY WINNING THE BATTLE.

now you know WY there are so many hof juweliere in Germany .
and some off them existent Moore then 150 years .

they where a economic factor ..
medal where by products ,,,and now you know wy the government wanted the Moore costly medal back ( after the soldiers died )

it also told me that silver off the old was very expensive and valuable and hard to produce from the sources that there where available in the old day's
.

also different composition ...

in 1813 silver wood not be so pure as modern time .

also the proses of melting an forming the silver wood leave periodical manufacture traces that are typical fore the period .


so ,,,under a microscope an 1813 silver frame wood look different then a 1957 produced ek ...

and two silver ek's from 1813 must have simultaneity's under the microscope...

here the ek2 1813 with COA from Detlev Nieman that I took as starting point .


forget the scratches ,,,,


air bubbles ,,dark UN regularly spots
.

[Montgomery Burns]

the cross with the strange frame ,,,,

also air bubbles ,,dark UN regularly spots

but less air bubbles ,,but ok different manufacture ? ,,in my opinion close ..
and imposable to copy

seen the iron core is Moore detailed I think a bit later then the ek with the COA from DN..

dimensions 44,05 /44,35 mm

weight 20 grams

thickness 3,41mm

magnetic yes

.

[Montgomery Burns]

here a 1870 ek

.

[Montgomery Burns]

here a 1914 ek

,

[Montgomery Burns]

here a 1942

.

[Montgomery Burns]

and a 1957

.