Frame studying

[Wik]

Hey all. I was combing over several dealer sites, looking for Godets, Juncker, AWS ect etc and am reminded of a few threads last year I had read with input from some of you "super members" .

Basically I read earlier from a post that with Imperial, you can't really judge a cross's maker by the core, rather you have to use the frame. I have always struggled with frames but been better with cores. So I guess I am a bit behind lol. At any rate, I recall a thread talking about the relationship between AWS and Juncker.

The point of this is that I am interested in collecting specifically Godet, AWS/Juncker crosses (listed in my sig) but I can't effectively spot them. I feel like I have Godet down better because I have seen a few, but am lost on Juncker. I have a Juncker, and studied it but can't seem to find other crosses that match. I had thought about going into the Imperial EK database but I don't see any entry for Juncker crosses to compare and study. I also don't have a jewelers loop to effectively study the one Juncker EK I own.

Anyhow, I was hoping some folks could post pics, info, insight etc etc on the frames of these makers so that I can better learn them and work on collecting those specific makers. I'm kinda at a loss. Any help is much appreciated!


Ryan

[streptile]

Hi Ryan,

Nice to see you back in the game.

You've asked a lot of questions; I'll do my best to answer the ones I can.

First, it's not at all clear to me that Juncker made any 1914 EKs during the war itself. I believe they made them, but I lack proof. So when we talk about Juncker/AWS, we're really talking about AWS, as far as we know for sure. The two are often conflated because Juncker and AWS clearly had some relationship during WWII, and Juncker used the same frames and cores as AWS did for their 1914-series EKs.

So, with AWS, you're in some luck because they used only three instantly recognizable cores (perhaps one more, the "slant W"). I'll include a pic of all three below, numbered in the order in which I believe they were used. I think 1) was a 1914 - 1920s core, and 3) was a 1930s - 1945 core. What about 2)? I'm not 100% sure. I think between the others. It's the one usually found on pillowbacks.



Luckily, if you see an EK with any of these cores, and the typical AWS frame shape, it's a safe bet that it's an AWS. So what's the typical AWS "frame shape"? It looks like a WWII-era shape, and it has a frame lug. Here is a picture.



These days, I don't really look at the beading pattern in the center any more. I rely on judging the shape, and seeing the lug. But the beading is distinctive anyway. It's got some cross-hatching like a Juncker:



AWS EK2s are marked 800 or 925, or unmarked. AWS EK1s are often marked with thier famous Flag & Sheild mark and also may carry silver content marks.

What about Godet? That is a whole other long story. Luckily, they're almost always marked (except when they're not).

[Wik]

Trev,

Thanks man! Since coming back I feel a little more focused and directed in what I want to collect. I still enjoy TR stuff, always will, but especially with the price and availability, I think Imperial is a better choice for me (with the exceptions of nice examples by Juncker and Godet from any period haha)

Thanks for the pics and explanation of the lug. As I was looking at your pics and reading I recalled something we had talked about before. The jump ring on the J/AWS is only soldered on one side. With now realizing the lug is such a big detail and give away (just kinda figured plenty of other makers used one as well) I think that is a bit of a game breaker for me to identify them! A great many thanks for that (even though it seems so blatantly obvious. I apologize, my eyes are untrained and I don't seem to pick up on some of the subtleties of core and frames).

Looking at your pics, the J/AWS I have is the core type 3.

As far as the frame and cross-hatching, I am very frustrated by this and always have been, since starting this hobby. When I look at a cross, and the inner beading of a frame near the "W" or the Swaz, I can rarely if ever, tell the difference. They all look the same to me. Not to mention when I see crosses on e-bay half the pics are horrid anyhow. I understand (or so I think) the concept of the inner beading and cross-hatching but every cross I see seems to have cross-hatching, so this just vexes me more (mostly because I feel like a buffoon for not being able to recognize it).


Ryan