Godet

[streptile]

A quick check and the addresses all seem to line up with Trevors timeline give or take a year..

This must be because I drew my conclusions largely from the phonebook ads. If a Godet ad shows a new address in 1913 (for example), I recorded that year as the one in which they relocated. Of course, if their new ad runs that address in 1913, they probably moved in 1912. D'oh!

...and on 1 September 1893 they moved to new headquarters at 167 Friedrichstraße.

The ad for 1893 (which I should have posted but forgot) says explicitly: "After 1 September we are at 167 Friedrichstraße," which is how I got such an accurate date for that move.

[Don D.]

Great thread guys. I think it will change the way we look at Godet items.

[Bernie Brule]

Fascinating thread. Did these different Godet firms all use the mm G on their crosses? Are the crosses all identically made? Or are there differences among the different Godet made crosses?

[streptile]

Fascinating thread. Did these different Godet firms all use the mm G on their crosses? Are the crosses all identically made? Or are there differences among the different Godet made crosses?

Hi Bernie,

That is a subject I hope to explore in an upcoming thread. It seems to be quite complex, since Godet(s) used many different frames, marks, cores, pins, etc. I am working on sorting it through and hope to have some tentative conclusions soon.

[Biro]

Fascinating thread. Did these different Godet firms all use the mm G on their crosses? Are the crosses all identically made? Or are there differences among the different Godet made crosses?

That is exactly what we are trying to establish at the moment Bernie. As yet there is no definitive answer and at the the end of the thread there still may not be. The one thing Godet do not advertise, include in catalogues, etc... is what maker mark they happen to use. Godet - particularly J Godet - appear to use SUCH a variation of marks throughout their history, not just on medals, but tableware/antiques that an exploration of that could well be a whole new thread.

I think the best we can hope for - and what i personally find the MOST important to get answers to - is....

1) An accurate timeline of the history of the Godet concern before and after the split (and I think thanks to Trevor we are well on the way to having that established pretty conclusively)


2) Was there a J H Werner connection (and again, I think that is beyond doubt even at this early stage, even if we don't quite know quite in what capacity)

3) What connection/influence did Deumer have as "co-proprietor" of Godet after 1930 and of what relevance is the Sy Wagner/Deumer/Werner connections?

I think particularly the last question is of huge significance not only to us in Imperial, but to our Third Reich cousins as well.

Keep it coming men - we're making good ground here...

Marshall

[gregM]

so if I am following this correctly. The brothers Godet got into a p1ssing
match and went their separate ways. Both continued to work in the family
trade--making medals. One brother it seems did not do so well and needed
a financial partner to stay in business. Enter JH Werner while the other
brother seems to have at least lasted long enough to have made the
RK and Oaks to the RK.

[Biro]

and who is "Janus & Friedrich"? Seen at the top of the document in post #60.

Greg

'Janus and Friedrich' were another Jeweler of the period and located pretty close to Godet.

Seems there was quite the coalition going on between a number of Berlin Jewelers at the time...

[streptile]

so if I am following this correctly. The brothers Godet got into a p1ssing
match and went their separate ways. Both continued to work in the family
trade--making medals. One brother it seems did not do so well and needed
a financial partner to stay in business. Enter JH Werner while the other
brother seems to have at least lasted long enough to have made the
RK and Oaks to the RK.

Hi Greg,

That is not quite my understanding. I will try to lay the story out as I understand it so far in a similarly concise fashion.

J. Godet & Sohn was owned and operated by Eugene Godet. In 1923, at the height of the depression and inflation of Weimar Germany, the company went public. Then -- perhaps as a hostile takeover, perhaps as a result of a decision from the shareholders, or perhaps as Eugene's own decision -- J. Godet & Sohn was sold to, or merged with, J.H.Werner, in about 1929. After that, Eugene Godet was a fee agent, and he started a new company with Jean Godet (presumably his brother), called Gebrüder Godet. In 1933, Wolf Conze, who was previously the owner of Wilhelm Deumer, also became co-owner of Gebrüder Godet (how long this lasted is a mystery at this moment). Gebrüder Godet and J. Godet & Sohn (seemingly part of J.H. Werner, or part of some conglomerate that included J.H. Werner and possibly S-W and J&F as well) co-existed throughout the Third Reich and were in competition with one another. J. Godet & Sohn made some TR-era decorations, including the Spanish Cross with brilliants, but it was really Gebrüder Godet who flourished. They received a PKZ (21) and an LdO (L/50) license, and made many of the finest decorations of the Third Reich.

Does that seem a reasonable prècis of the information we have so far, Marshall?

[Biro]

... Does that seem a reasonable prècis of the information we have so far, Marshall?...

I would say yes - very much the current state of play, except that I can not comment on whether Wolfe Conze was either 'currently' or 'previously' involved with Deumer at the point of Godet's split, because I cannot read German.

We could always ask them I guess.. http://www.deumer.de/en/company/history although according to their (Deumers) history page..... "Wolfe Conze lead the company through WW2".....

If that's the way it reads in that little snippet I posted earlier, then yes, your summary is certainly the way it seems to be evolving.

M.

[streptile]

1904

Hey Marshall,

Do you have the full documents you showed?

I'm just taking a close look now and I see that some are for pretty interesting items. For example, in 1904 they filled an order for OEK1380/1, the Grand Cross of the Order of the Wendischen Krone with Brilliants, for (I think) the Grand Duke of Mecklenburg-Strelitz. I wonder what the price was, or what else was on the receipt.

[streptile]

Absolutely correct, but it makes you wonder about an ongoing connection of some sort which may have survived a transition from Godet & Sohn to Gebruder Godet (which is credited with the RK, not Godet & Sohn).

Hi Gentry,

Just to make this clear: according to my understanding of the article, Wolf Conze was owner of Wilhelm Deumer in Pforzheim. Then, in 1933, he became co-owner of Gebrüder Godet. This was then about four years after J. Godet was sold (?) to Werner. Thus the Deumer connection was never to J. Godet, but to Gebrüder Godet, the presumed maker of the RK shown as a Deumer.

So a connection of some sort between Deumer and the maker of the RK des EK you show is perfectly possible, and not a long stretch (to me). To be honest, coupled with the photos of the RK in production at the Deumer factory in 1942 (?), it seems pretty logical that Deumer could have been manufacturing Gebrüder Godet's RKs. But now I am out of my depth; RK study is a field unto itself, I know.

[Biro]

Hey Marshall,

Do you have the full documents you showed?.

Sadly not..

M.

[saschaw]

You can see the effects of the looming inflation in the receipt shown from 1922 (post 67). 240 Marks for a single medal for the Mecklenburg Strelitz Dept. of State, a total of 13,200 Marks for an order of 55 pieces. Compare to the 7.50 per-piece price from 1914 (post 66), which included cases and ribbons! A different medal, sure. But a medal is a medal -- these are not enameled Orders here.

Might I chime in here - this is probably due to the inflation. I wonder what they did cost one year later.

[streptile]

Might I chime in here - this is probably due to the inflation.

You can see the effects of the looming inflation in the receipt shown from 1922...

[Leroy]

Hi Gentry,

Just to make this clear: according to my understanding of the article, Wolf Conze was owner of Wilhelm Deumer in Pforzheim. Then, in 1933, he became co-owner of Gebrüder Godet. This was then about four years after J. Godet was sold (?) to Werner. Thus the Deumer connection was never to J. Godet, but to Gebrüder Godet, the presumed maker of the RK shown as a Deumer.

So a connection of some sort between Deumer and the maker of the RK des EK you show is perfectly possible, and not a long stretch (to me). To be honest, coupled with the photos of the RK in production at the Deumer factory in 1942 (?), it seems pretty logical that Deumer could have been manufacturing Gebrüder Godet's RKs. But now I am out of my depth; RK study is a field unto itself, I know.

Trevor,
I know I said I wouldn't bother you guys again, but here's just a brief addition which might make a connection between Deumer and Godet/Zimmermann more likely. First, though, thanks for the correction to Gebruder Godet and not J. Godet, which makes more sense.

Deumer apparently ceased production activities for the RK in 1941, following the ban on private sale of the RK. The photos from its shop are from October, 1940.

By a curious coincidence, there may not have been any "Godet" or Zimmermann" RK's made after 1941, either. The Godet RK's, always rare, can be authoritatively dated no later than 1941, and that only from a single presentation cased Godet RK with Oakleaves & Swords (which were instituted in 1941). Similarly, Zimmermann RK's are almost always seen around the necks of early (pre-1942) recipients of the RK. Of course, the PKZ may have handed some out later, until the stock ran out, but seeing Zimmermann RK's on later recipients is extremely unusual.

As a last (and I mean it this time!) note, there was recently posted here (and Dietrich reviewed and confirmed its authenticity in hand) a near-to-mint Schickle RK with Oakleaves, recovered by a British service member in Ludenscheid (home of Deumer) immediately after the war. The Oakleaves turned out to be an unmarked set which was, however, identifiable as a "Godet". Such an unmarked "Godet" set is a total anomaly and has not previously observed to my knowledge. Were they made by Deumer as a "Godet" design? We don't know yet, but it is tempting now to make that connection.
Best,
Leroy