1914 EK I Prinzen - Help!!

[Kraal]

I hate when they try to cheat a possible buyer with the name of a famous author..

[Roglebk]

To me it looks like a cheap, casted one piece production..

The material is, I assume, a very soft metal, due to the much "scars" and pressure points.. On the catch, the sides and the needle you can see scratches because it was stamped out.

The materials surface on the backside looks like beein casted. And then casted one piece cross was stampend out.

You can easily spot that its a one piece construction from the painting. Look at the pics, you can see it best on the 3 and 9 o clock arm what I mean. It goes - black core - bright line - black line - beading. This phenomene comes from too much paint in the angles, the photograph light comes in back in a different angle because its not flat. So it goes black core, bright line, black line, beading. Look here http://www.1944shop.com/index1.html you will spot this fact on every copy. The black line before the beading is brighter the more black colour is on the beading.

The crown and the W and the 1914 have the worst quality I have ever seen. Even KOs ugliest examples have a better quality. It comes from old casting forms.. From cheap detailed, old casting forms with rests of the older productions leaving holes in the following..

Hope you understand what I am trying to say, I often miss the correct englisch vocabulary to name the things I try to explain.


greetings
Andy

Your English is very good Andy.

Please post pics of fake crosses with the same hardware, i never saw anything like it.

There's a couple of things i do not agree on, but will await the sellers answer as i have asked him some q's.

In the meantime have a look at 2 Deumer Prinzen. Core looks very similar, don't u agree?

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...39&postcount=1

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...98&postcount=7

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...3&postcount=12

[streptile]

In the meantime have a look at 2 Deumer Prinzen. Core looks very similar, don't u agree?

Surprisingly similar indeed. I would say it's either the same core, or a copy of the Deumer core.

[AFF96]

Carl, please let us know what he has to say. I haven't told him I'm passing on it yet, suppose I should contact him.
Thanks!
Greg

[Roglebk]

Surprisingly similar indeed. I would say it's either the same core, or a copy of the Deumer core.

Why do we always seem to agree Trev

[Kraal]

Well,

I consider both pieces to be original. Anyhow, the first with needle was cleaned at some point of time and from what I see it seems beeing repainted. Can´t tell you if it was repainted nowadays or back then.

At some points you can see that the paint is WAAAY to thick. Look at the crown. It´s totally drowned in a fat paste. You find rests of black paint on the beading too. It´s not like a bit of paint on the beading is a sure sign of a copy- but if signs sum up, be careful. As well, note the very uneven flow of the paint on the 3 o clock arm. For a stamped core, that´s just not the usual appearance. The Cross is original, no doubt. But it is repainted and polished.

You can see, this cross is made out of german quality itself. Great beading and good looking material used.

I for me would give it a bath in a nail polish mixture. Rub the foul paint off with a very soft toothbrush. If I remember correctly, it was Kay or Trevor who bought a Prinzen and saw the repaint. He removed the repaint and tada- a lovely and highly detailed core came back to the daylight, with a great original paint beeing left and untouched, even when the repaint was removed.

The second Prinzen is a truly nice deumer. You can see, on the 3 o clock arm beading there is some paint- but I consider this to be original. You can find this on many knights crosses 1939 as well. From what I see at the pics it´s a very nice and untouched cross.

Compare the cores- I assume they are totally equal. The upper cross just lost all its detail to the repaint.

I consider the fake Deumer as a one piece cross copied from an original deumer. Press a deumer into wax and so on and you got a copy that looks okay from the front but shows its true nature through the backside, the needle system with catch, the paint and the quality.

If no cheat attemp from the dealer, pity him his loss


greetings
Andy

[Roglebk]

And here's the page with Prinzen from the Deumer Catalogue, anybody knows what year it's from? I've asked Marshall, he might know.

Never thought about the 'RM' (Reichsmark) until now, that would mean the Prinzen was at least, or also, made between 1924-45.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...8&postcount=16

[Kraal]

Of course Prinzen were made during this episode.

But the material was cleary different. The first of the crosses was real silver, the second the typical post 1914 standart pattern silvered piece

I think its pretty easy to spot if a material is 800+ silver or not, if the pics are fair.

greetings
Andy

[Roglebk]

Well,

I consider both pieces to be original. Anyhow, the first with needle was cleaned at some point of time and from what I see it seems beeing repainted. Can´t tell you if it was repainted nowadays or back then.

At some points you can see that the paint is WAAAY to thick. Look at the crown. It´s totally drowned in a fat paste. You find rests of black paint on the beading too. It´s not like a bit of paint on the beading is a sure sign of a copy- but if signs sum up, be careful. As well, note the very uneven flow of the paint on the 3 o clock arm. For a stamped core, that´s just not the usual appearance. The Cross is original, no doubt. But it is repainted and polished.

Thanks for the concern! But it's not repainted. All Deumer Prinzen i saw so far have a 'post assembly' layer of paint. This 'updressing' was done with other makers as well. 3 o clock arm is flat as a mirror but the 9 o clock got some veining, not flowed paint. Core has been cleaned by me, it was very dirty, but not the Silver itself.

I for me would give it a bath in a nail polish mixture. Rub the foul paint off with a very soft toothbrush. If I remember correctly, it was Kay or Trevor who bought a Prinzen and saw the repaint. He removed the repaint and tada- a lovely and highly detailed core came back to the daylight, with a great original paint beeing left and untouched, even when the repaint was removed.

That was not Trev nor Kay, that was yours truly! And youre right, the AWS Prinzen sure looks better now!

The second Prinzen is a truly nice deumer. You can see, on the 3 o clock arm beading there is some paint- but I consider this to be original. You can find this on many knights crosses 1939 as well. From what I see at the pics it´s a very nice and untouched cross.

It sure is!


Compare the cores- I assume they are totally equal. The upper cross just lost all its detail to the repaint.

It is not repainted, but there's a dent in the Crown. The Deumer Brass and Iron plate cores were easy to strike but also a bit soft.

I consider the fake Deumer as a one piece cross copied from an original deumer. Press a deumer into wax and so on and you got a copy that looks okay from the front but shows its true nature through the backside, the needle system with catch, the paint and the quality.

If no cheat attemp from the dealer, pity him his loss

I do pity him, if it's a one piece, not so sure about that yet.


greetings
Andy

No need to discuss my old ones, know what i got. Better discuss the ugly one instead.

[Roglebk]

Of course Prinzen were made during this episode.

But the material was cleary different. The first of the crosses was real silver, the second the typical post 1914 standart pattern silvered piece

I think its pretty easy to spot if a material is 800+ silver or not, if the pics are fair.

greetings
Andy

Correct! My Silver Pinback is early and the Screwback is later, as stated in the Prinzen thread.

[streptile]

The Cross is original, no doubt. But it is repainted and polished.

I feel both Carl's crosses are lovely originals with nice, untouched original paint. As mentioned, the SB is probably later (Weimar).

After all this discussion, I would just let the Prinzen under discussion here go. It's been for sale for an awfully long time, and no one has bought it, even at a good price, for a reason. Even if it were a real, period piece, it's ugly, and the hardware is at least not standard, and possibly replaced. And, after all that, it may even be a one-piece fake. Let it alone, is my advice.

[Roglebk]

I would just let the Prinzen under discussion here go. Even if it were a real, period piece, it's ugly, and the hardware is at least not standard, and possibly replaced. And, after all that, it may even be a one-piece fake. Let it alone, is my advice.

Agree! But really want to know if we got a "Deumer lookalike fake" or a original Deumer with another kind of hardware. Prinzen is my main interest and do not get many chances to discuss the small wonders

[Montgomery Burns]

And here's the page with Prinzen from the Deumer Catalogue, anybody knows what year it's from? I've asked Marshall, he might know.

Never thought about the 'RM' (Reichsmark) until now, that would mean the Prinzen was at least, or also, made between 1924-45.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...8&postcount=16

question ,,,?
is the catalog ek core print
a reference fore the core off the real prinsen we see here ?.

just wondering ,,,











.

[Kraal]

No need to discuss my old ones, know what i got. Better discuss the ugly one instead.

I know Deumer as a very good maker with nice beading, great core detail and very good quality overall (crosses of any time period). All the Deumer I have seen had a great detailed core without a thick layer of paint but very clear detail.

This would be the first that differs from my database, if you say you are expert in Deumer Prinzen, I will believe you and say thanks for the addition to my knowledge!

greetings
Andy

[Roglebk]

question ,,,?
is the catalog ek core print
a reference fore the core off the real prinsen we see here ?.

just wondering ,,,
.

Hi Kay, not sure if it's a photo or just a drawing of the awards. Would suspect it's a life like drawing. Compare the normal size EK's there to the TR made 1914 EK's and tell us what you think.