1813 Prinzen study

[AlikN]

Here are some findings that I have on the 1813 Prinzens, after spending some 'quality time' with my Prinzen I found some flaws on the frame that are visible on all 1813 Prinzens,
so far I see four different cores, but all have the same frames - amount and the shape of top row beads is the same and there two distinctive flaws that can be found on all types.
At first I thought that my cross is the same as Tony's - it is very close in core design. I talked to Tony and got all the measurements of the frames and measurements of core design, there was no difference in dimensions of the frames, but there were some minor differences in core design, so I looked close at those pictures again and saw that the date on my is a little smaller and positioned higher and a little different specialy noticeble on "3", ...so looks like there was one company stamping out frames and more then one making cores and assambling crosses, so I guess my cross is not just a weak cast by the maker of Tony's cross, it's similar design of different maker.

[AlikN]

Beading.

[AlikN]

Closeups of the flaws.

[AlikN]

...

[Montgomery Burns]

well done


regards kay


now we only need the normal ek2 1813 to






.

[Biro]

A comparison of the frame on your piece and one from an old Herman Historica auction gives a very favourable comparison IMO... particularly in the areas noted.

Marshall

[streptile]

Very nice presentation, Alik. Great comparisons, good eye. It's plain to see that the shape of the frame on all these is the same, but it's nice to see that the details and flaws match as well. Well done .

[Marc Garlasco]

Good work - but how many cores do we see?

[AlikN]

So far I see four different cores.

[Montgomery Burns]

So far I see four different cores.

that is the thing with 1813's not one 100% alike the other...
real hand crafted and at some point rude manufacture in a almost experimental ( young )stage

but these here are clearly from the same metal core producer






.

[Roglebk]

Well done Alik! Agree with Kay here, see only one core type. Really hope these cores were sand cast like their bigger brothers and in a casting tree there would be differencies between the cores.

They appear to be made by the same maker with diffferent stages of frame filing.

[Roglebk]

Alik, when loooking at Yours and Tonys cross in post 1 i would say the distance between the Oakleaves Stem and 1813 is the same on both crosses. Your core just seem to be sitting a bit higher in the frame.

[AlikN]

At first I thought that mine and Tony's are the same, I got the measurements of the core design from Tony and there are differences in positioning and size and for such a small area 0.6mm -0.7 mm it's very noticeable, while no differences in frame at all. I can see the differences in design which can't be made by one the same 'mother mold', looking at oaks - the design A & B very close, but there are some differences between "A&B" design and "C&D", most noticeable is the "C&D" more detailed, the ends of oaks on "A&B" narrower and more pointy, than there is a difference in size of the acorns between C and D, C acorns from side to side of the bidding, D has a space on the right side - smaller acorns.

Crosses on the picture were sized 1:1 by the size of the frames - step to step, so details as much as possible in proportions.


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[AlikN]

Crowns have some differences between "A&B" design and "C&D", I am not sure if C & D are identical hard to see details of D.

[AlikN]

If we compare the dates of the designs that are close to each other, A & B - even "B" being a weaker cast the sharp point in '3' is almost touching '1', but there is some space on date of cross "A", also the distance from top of the crown to the date on "A" noticeably larger then distance on "B" and this is not the only difference in size of the design - all oaks are smaller, can't be in-printed in the mold by the same 'mother mold' and I don't think that it would get that much shrinkage in cast, ...example posted by Marshall is the same core design as mine - the same maker.

C & D dates - on C first '1' long 'trunk, D short, second '1' on C short 'trunk, D long , '3' lower part is not the same shape.
I think it was easier back then for the makers to cast cores then cut new set of dies for the frames, so they shared the frame dies or one maker supplied everyone with a frames, I don't think one company would have such a variety of cores.