1870 EK1 'I' Wagner Part 2 - It's arrived!!

[Brian S]

I already put my two cents in. From construction and patina,

[Biro]

Eric...you the man - cheers for the bump!!......and thanks Brian and Bill...

Yes, a little dissapointed by the amount of responses, but it's to be expected I guess....everyone did such a great job analysing the dealers photo's I posted in this thread 1870 EK1 'I' Wagner...Opinions..? and probably feel they can't contribute too much more than they already have... I can’t complain…

Having now had it in hand and studied...(understatement) every minute detail, for those that are still interested I can probably sum up MY observations as follows….and remember, I’m well researched, but I’m NOT experienced….

- The frame at least has been cleaned, but the patina that remains in all those 'hard to clean' places looks extremely authentic when compared to my period 1813 ek2 (from Detlev), and an 1870 ek2 I have. Their is NO evidence of machining, plenty of hand finishing, although from when, I’m not qualified to tell you………

- The quality of the core detail is EXCEPTIONAL – the crown height beggars beleif, the Date and W in high releif, but not excessively so, the pin and catch look original, weight and dims (TIGER1 ?) seem good.....and all the 'crappy' elements - like the soldering, the worn beading, the filing, the corrosion shown in the pictures, look to me like true age and not the result of a bucket of piss and a hammer!!........

- The core details are indeed a 100% match for the 1870 EK1 screaming at me from the BACK COVER of 'the Iron Time'……….I successfully investigated this further, and unfortunately, it appears this piece has no known provenance…..

I, like many of you it appears, get an extremely good feeling about this piece..

BUT...

- MOST dissapointingly, the Maker Mark turns out to be yet ANOTHER variation of the ‘I.Wagner’ stamp and far from the more ‘Textbook’ example pictured on Detlevs ‘Original’, and featured in ‘Iron Time’…..but this is not a crudely done m/mark by anyones standards, and is close enough ‘grammatically’ and ‘stylistically’ to just confuse me more…. I personally find the idea of a ‘transitioning’ maker mark a little too tenuous…..

So here's the dilemma...

As excited as I am about this cross, retaining it and paying the money would mean that I, as a collector, would have to accept all of the following as true......

1: That the firm of Wagner and Sohn, in the 1870's, made or ‘borrowed’ MANY different core dies to produce MANY different versions of the 1st Class Iron Cross……

2: That they also used MULTIPLE versions and variants of their prestigious Maker Mark…….

3: That of the 6 BILLION people in the world, I have stumbled upon one of the 1400 odd Period examples….

I’m not sure I can do that, so at this stage, I'm probably going to send it back....

PLEASE CONVINCE ME OTHERWISE!!....

[Tony & Kaiser]

A few words from someone not qualified to comment on your EK:

1: Common business practice is to "contract out" work. Who is to say that Wagner and Sohn did not do this to meet the demand, as these were all made by hand?

2. Of the 6 billion people in the world, only a few of us would want one of these, let alone understand what it is.

However, my collecting advice has always been that only keep something if you are 100% happy. 99%........send it back. That 1% will keep you awake at night.......

[Brian S]

Tony is absolutely right. We just don't have all the information to make a 100% decision on these. Why don't you try getting an extension on the time and get a COA from Detlev?

[Biro]

Tony is absolutely right. We just don't have all the information to make a 100% decision on these. Why don't you try getting an extension on the time and get a COA from Detlev?

That's exactly what I'm planning to do Brian...I think with my research, everyones input, and his C.O.A., I would definitely go for it...at least on reflection, if I get burned, I can truthfully say 'not for lack of trying'.......

but somehow, I don't think he's gonna go for it.........

[Brian S]

Biro, to answer your PM, I for one am totally confused by all the patterns of Wagner EK1's. Could be most are real period examples leading up to around 1930 or so when the last vets died. Wouldn't need too many patterns in my opinion. I could imagine a quicky pattern in 1871 to get EK's in the hands of awardees immediately. Then maybe a classier look sometime quickly. Then for sure a 1895 piece that is spectacular. All speculation but I could imagine, and that's just dreaming, not laying my money down, three versions of the Wagner trademark. But that's just my conjecture at this point. I wish I knew where families proudly sitting on their ancestors awards were so we could do some photographing. I am asking relatives to ask around. My 80+ year old WWII von Etzel relative is a member of vet groups. I've asked him to bring it up and ask around. Remote chance, but anything is worth a try.

But didn't Previtera have some EK's with provenance in his book? That's what I thought...

And I remain, Confused in Seattle.

[Biro]

But didn't Previtera have some EK's with provenance in his book?

Nothing to that effect was mentioned.......and I didn't go 'there'....

[Biro]

I wish I knew where families proudly sitting on their ancestors awards were so we could do some photographing. I am asking relatives to ask around. My 80+ year old WWII von Etzel relative is a member of vet groups. I've asked him to bring it up and ask around. Remote chance, but anything is worth a try.

ABSOLUTELY

[Biro]

my collecting advice has always been that only keep something if you are 100% happy. 99%........send it back. That 1% will keep you awake at night.......

Tony

Thanks, this is my 1%....

[Brian S]

But if I find one, that doesn't negate the, in my mind, huge possibility of other Wagner models. Go through Steve's book again, some of those are atributed.

[mravery]

Hey Biro,

For my '2 cents worth'....

I think it's fine

Now.... I have nothing to base this on other than my own feelings and the photos that you have posted....

Keep in mind that these were made to wear.... NOT for collectors to ponder over......

Heck... if you send it back.. let me know as I might be interested (The new Parade tunic I have...... the general was awarded an 1870 first class)...

Cheers
Mark

[Biro]

But if I find one, that doesn't negate the, in my mind, huge possibility of other Wagner models. Go through Steve's book again, some of those are atributed.

I admit Brian, that I personally find the concept of multiple dies easier to swallow than the concept of multiple and variable maker marks....surely the standardisation and recognisability of the prestigious company 'LOGO' is way up there in ANY company manafest......Coke, Ford, Klein and Quenzer....

I've posted (VERY diplomatically!!) what I beleive to be the two only contenders for Wagner maker mark on '70 EK1's....

Has anyone EVER seen the same m/mark I have on the back of mine?

[Eric Stahlhut]

I haven't seen it before. Before you brought it rather painfully to my attention, that is!


I guess the 'buffing wheel conspiracy' theory wasn't so far fetched after all...

If anyone deserves a legit 1870 EK1 it is you. You have certainly worked hard enough for one......think lothe!

Gluck auf!

e~

[Brian S]

I'd like to see you get one also. I just really like that one you have... The Frau Patina is so convincing and the hinge/pin looks right to me. Remember these maker marks were not on billboards... It's just a hand stamp device. Not part of a die. I hope someday we'll all know.

[Eric Stahlhut]

Problem I have with Biro's example is that it definitely is not stamped by hand.


Way too clean, IMO. The pressure points seem to be wrong.