EK2 1870 - opinions please

[Bill M]

"Lack of intelligence is obviously hindering my development"
--I seriously don't think so, but get that Heyde book!
--All in all, the shape of the frame and the new-looking paint tends to make this one kinda dubious.

[stdub]

--All in all, the shape of the frame and the new-looking paint tends to make this one kinda dubious.

I think this can not be the reason to say it´s not okay - I have Iron Cross 1914 that was nearly 90 years in it´s case and it looks as nice as the 1870 one.

[Tony & Kaiser]

My eyes, my eyes, is that a 3rd Reich frame or not?

Yes-Sir-ee, time for some input from someone who does not even own one of these....but is desperately looking.

In regards to the frame, I did an overlay of this EK after re-sizing it and it is a perfect match in external outline to Brian's family piece. It does not have IMO the external shape of a Nazeee frame. What differs, is the beading on this one is wider, while on Brian's it is narrow. The details are not as crisp especially in the crown and the date, but that could be by the amount of paint put on by this maker, or it has been repainted, or this maker just made an EK with less detail. The shape of the crown, however, seems to be correct and not like the 1914s. None of these points make this a bad cross. It may be a later made EK as has been mentioned with the fatter beading (even wider than 1914s) and poorer details, but those features do not make it a copy. The fat edge beading makes me think this is later made EK, possibly even post Great War but not into the Third Reich era. Does this make any sense or should I just shut-up and stick to Dunkelblau Waffenrock?

<img src=http://www.kaisersbunker.com/ek/compare.jpg>

[stdub]

Thank you Tony! You raise my hope that I do not have a faked 1870 IC in my collection!!

Best wishes

Joerg

[Eric Stahlhut]

Let's put it this way, Tony.


If you were to superimpose a crooked cross on the one to the left, how would it look?

[Tony & Kaiser]

(Here is more opinion based on no experience). The Germans, (God bless em) are very fond of marking centennials etc with medals etc. Does anyone have any evidence that on the 50th anniversary of the Franco-Prussian war in 1921 that 1870 EK could have been made? Does anyone have a catalogue of a 1914 EK maker that ALSO shows "replacement" 1870 EK2 available? My opinion is (once again) than an EK made after 1870 does not make it fake, but being a replacement or centennial EK should affect the price. Yes?

[Eric Stahlhut]

Yep! Price would be affected. Tony, that cross could also have been made for shop displays or any given kind of patriotic activity. Don't have a catalogue handy...

Unless the finish shown on the beading of the frames is merely a wierd reflection
made by Joerg's scanner, I tend to agree with Vadim and Tony(Tiger1).

[Tony & Kaiser]

If you were to superimpose a crooked cross on the one to the left, how would it look?

Hi Eric. I tried that. I cannot post the comparison as it is a pic of an 1939 EK2 I found on the net and it is owned by someone. They do not match. The distance from the edges to the center of the arms is much shorter on the 1939. But, what is interesting, is that this EK looks VERY much like the "Shinckleform" 1939 Iron Cross 2nd Class, which had the 1870/1914 shape, but with the fat Nazee era beading. Could that be even more suggestive that this is a 1930's piece? Which again, does not make it a fake. Yes? No? Go back to Dunkelblau?

[Tiger 1]

Joerg,

I've been thinking about this EK some more and have read the later posts. My take on this would be that it is a later 1870 probably from the 1914/18 era maybe as late as the mid thirties when the TR remilitarization picked up momentum. As someone else mentioned maybe a patriotic display piece. One further observation, the ribbon ring looks a bit smaller like it was meant to be hooked on a medal bar. I don't have any problems with it's originality but I'm sure it is a much later piece of 1870 production. I view this piece like I do my 1914 EKI that is mm with a 4 and a L/16 on the pin and made during the TR era. The beading is frosted and the core paint is perfect with a little age to know that it is not new. A excellent quality cross made in a later era for display or replacement.

Just some more thoughts.

Tony

[Bill M]

"I think this can not be the reason to say it´s not okay - I have Iron Cross 1914 that was nearly 90 years in it´s case and it looks as nice as the 1870 one."
--Possibly a wrong choice of words there, by 'dubious' I sorta meant that it is more thought provoking than the typical example. If I were 100% I would have just said so (and no, I am not afraid of saying that - even with all the hullabaloo going on lately!)
--I think Tony hit it on the money, as I said - it's too small to be a 3rd Reich frame - the beading I think creates a sort of optical illusion. I couldn't figure it out, the core seems to fit nicely (not too big for the frame, but something was off). As I said, I think Tony hit on it with the 'fat beading' remark.

[Brian S]

Can you compare to these? These are 100% spot on.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ad.php?t=47737

[Vadim K]

I thought it was a 1930s piece originally and I am sticking to it. Has anyone seen fat beading on a pre-1930s piece? More importantly, has anyone seen frosting on a pre-1930s piece?

Tony made a good point about this looking like a Shinckleform frame, but I dont know if there is any point in comparing the frame to a '39 EK2, of course it would not match if the piece was made in early 1930s. There were, on the other hand, tons of 1914 replacement pieces made throughout 1930s, those frames may be the ones we need to be looking at.

[Bill M]

Dis stdub say that it was frosted? Or is that a trick of the light?

[Vadim K]

It sure looks like it in the photo. Joerg, is it frosted?

[Bill M]

--If that thing's frosted, I wouldn't touch it with a pole. Frosted 1914's are rare rare rare. I don't think there would be a need to make an 1870 cross on the eve of WW2. Guys were all dead. Why bother getting one made then?
--I for one, don't think it is frosted - I think it was assumed by the way it looks in the photo, the lighting. I can't tell you what else, but I also don't think it was made in the 30's or 40's.