More help w/ ribbon bar decoding: Identifying an Anonymous Luftwaffe Officer

[landsknechte]

Yes, this bar might look familiar, as it's one that Rick Versailles currently has up on eStand. (...and yes, I just sent a PM that's the equivalent of waving one's hand in the back of the classroom and yelping "pick me"...)

The only ribbon that I'm unsure of is the one sandwiched between the Hindenburg Cross and the Luftwaffe Long Service ribbon. Anyhow, can anyone shed some light on what the other ribbons might "mean", specifically the HHOX and the MMO4X, and what sort of picture can be put together of the user through this bar?

Thanks,
--Chris

[Rick Research]

That's the Bavarian army Jubilee Medal, probably 1911 version. If you-- or any other member-- gets it



Dam you! I hate you! It should be miiiiiiiiine!!!! Ewwwwwww!






No, the ONLY reason that's slipped through MY Grasping Claws is that I already owe him on the Spanish Civil War pair etc.

Will advise owner of my research... because I did this one, you bet. Can't get it below FOUR guys.

[landsknechte]

That's the Bavarian army Jubilee Medal, probably 1911 version. If you-- or any other member-- gets it



Dam you! I hate you! It should be miiiiiiiiine!!!! Ewwwwwww!






No, the ONLY reason that's slipped through MY Grasping Claws is that I already owe him on the Spanish Civil War pair etc.

Will advise owner of my research... because I did this one, you bet. Can't get it below FOUR guys.

Yup. I'm the lucky bastard! Officially. (Insert evil cackling and curling of moustache.)

[Rick Research]

But if something...

happens

to you, it's alllll mine, right?

OK, HHOX and Bavarian MMO4XwC is not a common pair at all. With at least a 1911 Jubilee, but only 12 to 17 years in as counted by 1939 in the Luftwaffe, that let's out anyone with a 1905 Jubilee-- too many years service in. So what we have is a Bavarian career Oberleutnant who just made, or reached Hauptmann aD rank 1920, recalled for the Luftwaffe, and undoubtedly an Oberst.

I found exactly FIVE HHOX/MMO4XwC/1911 suspects who could NOT be ruled out. One of those, on checking further turned out to have been in the WW2 Luftwaffe alright-- but der RESERVE, not as an (E) retread regular-- so NO Luftwaffe long service awards for HIM.

This leaves FOUR possibles. Unfortunately I can not find a single trace of any of these four beyond that they were alive in 1926!

Joseph BAUCH of Bavarian Foot Artillery Regiment 3, born 1888, served 1908-20. Charakterisiert Hauptmann aD

Friedrich Freiherr von BERCHEM of Bavarian Field Artillery Regiment 7, born 1890, served 1910-20. Charakterisiert Hauptmann aD

Karl SCHRÖDER of Bavarian Jäger Battalion 2, born 1888, served 1908-20. Charakterisiert Hauptmann aD.

and

Kornelius VOGELEY of Bavarian Field Artillery Regiment 12, born 1889, served 1908-20. Charakterisiert Hauptmann aD.

I cannot confirm if any were WW1 flyers or if they all remained in their branches. And I cannot confirm whether ANY of them served in the Luftwaffe, since the only officers for which a Luftwaffe Rank List exists were FLYERS as of February 1945. Three of these four suspects were more likely to be Flak types.

Thanks to the idiocy of Bavarian WW1 awards being gazetted to peacetime unit affiliations, no clues there. The Prussian HHOX lists are even worse, giving neither units nor first names. That's why I haven't listed ranks and dates on the two awards for all four above: no way of telling WHICH of them is most likely, only that THESE four are the most likely. They all had the 1911/HHOX/MMO4XwC. No way to tell who among them could have gotten a Hamburg Hanseatic Cross, at this point.

[landsknechte]

Check this out...

http://www.flugbeobachter.de/Kriegsz...m/berchem.html



More digging to be done when I get home from work, but it looks like we at least have one of the candidates near an aircraft :-) Thanks,
--Chris

[landsknechte]

http://www.geocities.com/~orion47/WEHRMACHT/LUFTWAFFE/GenMaj-LW_A-H.html

...and possibly a relative (he does bear a resemblence to the figure on the right with the cane):

[Original source of the photo has disappeared]

GENERALMAJOR OTTO FREIHERR VON BERCHEM

[landsknechte]

Thanks to the idiocy of Bavarian WW1 awards being gazetted to peacetime unit affiliations, no clues there.

Bear with me if this is a stupid question, but pre- or post-war?

Thanks,
--Chris

[landsknechte]

Hope I'm not boring the pants of the forum at large, but the mere chance of having a named ribbon bar has me fixated at the moment..

There may be more information to follow, but I found a source for some further unit information on von Berchem:

FFA 1b_______________ 26May15 - 23Jan17
FEA 1b ______________ 23Jan17 - 30Jan17
Neuruppin____________ 30Jan17 - 17Feb17
BS Warschau (FT Course) 17Feb17 - 2Mar17
FA 295(A)b ____________ 2Mar17 - 7May17
FEA 1b _______________ 7May17 - 29Jul17
Flg.Funker Schule_______ 29Jul17 - 22Oct17
BS Warschau __________ 22Oct17 - 28Oct17
FEA 1b _______________ 28Oct17 - 5Jan18
Schusta 24b C.O. _______ 5Jan18 - 20Apr18
AFP 6 ________________ 20Apr18 - 25Apr18
Kofl 6 Stab ____________ 25Apr18 - 10Oct18
FEA 1b FBS Instr. _______ 10Oct18 - EOW

Still no post-WWI information on von Berchem, or any information on the other candidates, I'm afraid.

--Chris

[Rick Research]

WW1 Bavarian awards were gazetted to the pre-war unit of the person. An officer from Foot Artillery Regiment 3 had all his awards listed as "of" that, even when in totally different war units in reality. If the person did not have a pre-war unit, the document would say "in a Reserve Infantry Regiment" or whatever-- no REAL unit gazetted or on documents.

I have no idea where you got the flying unit information above, but are you sure it is for FRIEDRICH Baron Berchem?

[Rick Duiven]

I have no idea where you got the flying unit information above, but are you sure it is for FRIEDRICH Baron Berchem?

Yep - I'm his source. R.

[landsknechte]

WW1 Bavarian awards werte gazetted to the pre-war unit of the person. An officer from Foot Artillery Regiment 3 had all his awards listed as "of" that, even when in totally different war units in reality. If the person did not have a pre-war unit, the document would say "in a Reserve Infantry Regiment" or whatever-- no REAL unit gazetted or on documents.

I have no idea where you got the flying unit information above, but are you sure it is for FRIEDRICH Baron Berchem?

Reposting the information that Mr. Duiven was kind enough to share with me on a different forum, it's apparent that the old proverb "when it rains, it pours" holds:

Just to complicate your life a little, Oblt. Cornelius Vogeley also had an aviation connection. I also know he won the Hessian Warrior's Honor Decoration in Iron on 5Sep17 as the leader of Schusta 29b. Now you only need to convince yourself that one of the awards on the ribbon bar is that one <!--emo&--><!--endemo--> .

Oblt. Cornelius Vogeley, Obs.

FLA 1b ________________ 28Jun15 - 18Aug15
Artillerie _______________ 18Aug15 - 9Sep15
FFA 2b ________________ 9Sep15 - 17May16
KG 1/Ks Hoffmeister ______ 17May16 - 23May16
FFA 2b _________________ 23May16 - 21Jun16
FEA 1b _________________ 21Jun16 - 22Sep16
BS Instructor ____________ 22Sep16 - 26Nov16
Stofl von Strantz Stab _____ 26Nov16 - 26Feb17
Bild Offz. Stofl von Strantz __ 29Dec16 - 26Feb17
FEA 1b _________________ 26Feb17 - 1Mar17
Schusta 29b C.O. _________ 1Mar17 - 15Dec17
FA 293(A)b Stv. C.O. _______ 20Oct17 - 10Nov17
FA 296(A)b C.O. ___________ 15Dec17 - 29Oct18
Üfla Sonthofen C.O. ________ 29Oct18 - EOW

(snip)

Oops, it gets worse. As it turns out all four men had an aviation connection. This should complicate your hunt some what <!--emo&--><!--endemo-->

Oblt. Josef Bauch, Obs.:

FFA 3b ______________ 23Nov14 - 16Jun16
FEA 1b, BS I Instructor _ 16Jun16 - 11Dec16
FS IV ________________ 11Dec16 - 18Dec16
FEA 1b ______________ 18Dec16 - 30Jan17
Neuruppin ___________ 30Jan17 - 20Mar17
BS I (FT Course) _______ 20Mar17 - 28Mar17
Schusta 23b C.O. ______ 28Mar17 - 22Jun17
FA 291(A)b C.O. _______ 22Jun17 - EOW


Oblt. Karl Schröder, Obs.:

FEA 1b ________________ 18Jan15 - 25Feb15
FFA 5b ________________ 25Feb15 - 1Jun15
FEA 1b ________________ 1Jun15 - 12May16
FFA 5b ________________ 12May16 - 6Sep16
KG 6/Ks 35 C.O. _________ 6Sep16 - 25Nov16
FEA 1b ________________ 25Nov16 - 2May17
FBS I __________________ 2May17 - 2Jul17
FEA 1b _________________ 2Jul17 - 1Aug17
FBS I __________________ 1Aug17 - 12Aug17
Schusta 24b C.O. _________ 12Aug17 - 2Jan18
FA 286(A)b C.O. __________ 2Jan18 - EOW

I'm unfamiliar with the "Hessian Warrior's Honor Decoration in Iron", and all of my reference materials are 40 miles away at the moment, but if that's something that would have appeared on a ribbon bar, I guess Vogeley could be scratched off the list given this information...

At the moment, I'm too caffeine deprived for this too mean all that much. However, it's certainly more information than I had a few hours ago.

--Chris

[Rick Research]

Again, I have absolutely ZERO idea where EITHER of you are getting such day-by-day unit affiliation for WW1 German flying officers-- WHERE is that information coming FROM? (I have a Bavarian AND a Saxon I'd like to find such detail on, myself, and Neal O'Connor would be leaping and cavorting at The Answers To Alll Questions, if he wasn't already Up There with all these guys!)

Scratch Vogeley then-- the Hessian badge is the round pinback with "EL 1917 25" center we have had numerous threads in here on, and which required the Hessian General Decoration (Bravery Medal) etc. That's a Hamburg Hanseatic Cross on there, so he can be removed and you are down to THREE.

Unfortunately I know of NO Luftwaffe Ranklist except the February 1945 Hauptleute up flying/staff regulars reprint... and the Generals' biographies from Biblio.

But then I am equally unaware of wherever this WW-ONE unit information is coming from, too!

Ask me about the Imperial NAVY...

[landsknechte]

Again, I have absolutely ZERO idea where EITHER of you are getting such day-by-day unit affiliation for WW1 German flying officers-- WHERE is that information coming FROM? (I have a Bavarian AND a Saxon I'd like to find such detail on, myself, and Neal O'Connor would be leaping and cavorting at The Answers To Alll Questions, if he wasn't already Up There with all these guys!)

Well, I know where I'm getting this info. Where he's getting them, I've got no clue. Have to let him answer that one.

--Chris

P.S.
Another poster provided the following: "although this does not confirm that he actually entered the Luftwaffe, I have a copy of the 1932 member list of the association of officers of the former 7th Bavarian Field Artillery Regiment. Listed is one Hauptmann aD. Friedrich Frieherr von Berchem. His address: Schleißheim Flying School. So it would seem he was still probably active in the aviation field."

[Rick Duiven]

Again, I have absolutely ZERO idea where EITHER of you are getting such day-by-day unit affiliation for WW1 German flying officers-- WHERE is that information coming FROM?

But then I am equally unaware of wherever this WW-ONE unit information is coming from, too!

It is really quite straight forward, provided you are a WWI German aviation nut (as I am). My source for all this Bavarian information is:

Harald Potempa, "Die Königlich-Bayerische Fliegertruppe 1914-1918", Peter Lang, Europäischer Verlag der Wissenschaften, Frankfurt a.M., Germany, 1997. IBSN: 3-631-30508-7. Rick L., not to worry, I don't do medals. R.

[Rick Research]

I never HEARD of that one! Never saw a mention of it!

And here I've had Hauptmann Georg Haberl (b. 1882, apparently died late 1930s--never made General), identified only by his unique awards combination in this anonymous circa 1934 wedding photo (don't he look the Happy Groom!) as an RLM Obersteutnant, with NO data whatsoever on his air duties except as came up from his awards noted either by Neal (who didn't mention him in his first, Bavarian, volume) or on the published Autengruber rolls!!! (Flieger Abteilung 47 and FFA 4b)