1870 EKII, opinions?

[Tom Y]

This was recently sold online for a rather large sum. Unfortunately I didn't see the scans until after the sale was made. Any opinions?

[Tom Y]

Let's try the scans again.

[Tom Y]

I guess I'll have to do it this way.

http://www.mypage.ewol.com/wildman/untitled.jpg

http://www.mypage.ewol.com/wildman/untitled2.jpg

http://www.mypage.ewol.com/wildman/untitled6.jpg
Forgive the minor editing.

[George Stimson]

The EK itself might -- and I mean might -- be one that was made during WW 1 but I don't think the Spange or Oaks are good. Nor do I like the mounting job. And why would a single medal supposedly owned by someone with a service record spanning decades be mounted like that without even one other (e.g. Long Service) award?

[Tim Tezer]

This exact piece was posted on the e-stand by Joseph D'Errico. I found it interesting and I questioned it simply because it seems to me that ALL of these spanges should be questioned. There are a lot more of them around than could possibly have been worn by the small number of recipients, and there is a lot of disagreement regarding what is original. There was an article in the BDOS journal last year that purported to narrow down the absolutely original pieces to just one type - but I had a lot of trouble translating it with my poor German skills, so I never quite got to the crux of the argument.

As for the cross, I could easily believe that it's 1914 or earlier. It's the oakleaves, the spange, and the individual mounting that strike me as odd.

Should we PM Joseph and bring him into the discussion? It seems only fair he should have some input.

Tim

[Brian R]

And why would a single medal supposedly owned by someone with a service record spanning decades be mounted like that without even one other (e.g. Long Service) award?

I think George's point is a good one. I don't know anything about those spanges, but the oakleaves do seem a bit strange. And should we expect to see a a pin like that coming from the teens or twenties?

I agree with Tim - it's only fair that Joe is brought into this thread (I think he picked this combo up in Lowell last weekend).

Brian

[jani_tiainen]

Interesting thread since I bought that item from Joe, who has been one the good guys for me...

Looking forward to see your comments...

I also posted Joe and said that I would be more than happy to see his comments.

Jani

[Joseph D'Errico]

Good morning Gentlemen,

Thank you for the invitation to respond to the thread, I do not come into the Imperial Forum, only on rare ocaasions , so this thread more or less would have gone un-noticed by myself for that reason.

O.K. then lets get started as their is much to discuss and this debate that Tim brings up is as old as I can be remember.

First off, I would like to think that we all agree that I am one of the good guys and a return of the piece is not an issue for Jani.

Secondly,money is not the issue as the original seller is willing to back his piece up with a Detlev sort of return policy ,same as myself. Just using Detlev's name to illustrate a point and not steal any of his thunder.

I just thought it to be an important starting point so that the field is clean of that, and we can get the thread started on the right track. Also today starts the weekend so for me living in restaurant world makes it hard to get to the posts until after dinner service.

@ Tommy Y, dude what did you do to my pictures, you can post them with my name, everyone knows it was mine, just kdding as I apprciate the concern.

@ Tim and Brain, Thank you for suggesting a PM , as I would have never gotten the thread , for the reasons mentioned above. Also the badge was purchased at the Lowell show on Sunday from Robert Condor, Robert had purchased the piece from an advanced collector of EKs that has a huge collection and many years of experience in this area, as it was his main focus. I do not remember the man's name,except it was very long. So, that is as far back as I can go source wise.

@ George, I think a good starting point would be to break the piece down piece by piece. You know that I respect your opinion as being a pro on EKs of all periods and you have helped me on more than one occassion.

Forgive me if this is short for now as I am already late for getting started at the restaurant. But before I go I want to clarify that I did not just pick up the badge because it looked stunning and unusual at a glance. After I had gotten home I made some calls to furthur my research as the concerns that you all have, are more likely the same as I did . After a few phone calls I felt confident enough to sell the piece as the parties I contacted are most respected in this area and are very well known dealers. I really do not think it important to drop names, simply because we are discussing the badge and that should remain the focus.

I think that we all, or at least some of us buy the piece and not the dealer, so forgive me for not name dropping as I see it as being nothing more than that. The information that I was given as well as my own thoughts are what are important in addition to what you will share with your experience.

In the end no one gets hurt and we have a productive thread.

I will try and post again after lunch service , if that does not happen, it will have to be after dinner service. Sorry , for that, but that is restaurant life.

Best Regards,
JD

[George Stimson]

I'll start off by elaborating on one of the points I made above, mainly that I really don't believe that the 1914 Spange is good. It simply doesn't match the quality and characteristics of good pieces made by Wagner.

[George Stimson]

Now look at the difference in the veining on the Oaks on the questioned piece and the veining on these two examples.

[Brian R]

To make viewing a bit easier, I am posting Joe's picture of the EK from his site (hopefully it's coll with Joe since he already had it linked to the estand).

The first thing I want to say is that I have dealt with Joe on at least three occasions and he has been absolutely professional, trustworthy and our transactions have been flawless. I hope to continue to do business with him in the future.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I know nothing about the 1914 spanges. However, when looking at the one George has posted, it certainly looks to be of much better quality than the one on the mounted EK. As for the oakleaves, I definately do think they look a bit bizarre. However, I'm not sure that we collectors have a concrete sense of what oakleaves are supposed to look like. Do we really have any idea who produced them and how many producers there were? Without knowing this, I would think the possibilities could be pretty broad. I have three sets of oakleaves in my collection - they are all slightly different but all look to be finely constructed (they are all mounted as well). So, while the one on the mounted EK below looks strange, do we really know what is right and what is wrong? I think it would be interesting to see examples of what the community thinks are definate fakes (not entirely obvious fakes). The EK itself looks good to me, however, I'm really starting to second guess my knowledge of these. There seems to be a lot of skepticism on the board on all sorts of 1870 EK2 examples of late. And one more thing - it seems to me that it would be more likely for a veteran to wear a single mounted EK2 with oakleaves in his later years than a single mounted EK2 with oakleaves and spange. As George mentioned above, it would seem that if I guy had such a long career that he won the EK2 in 1870 and 1914 he would have a lot of awards to show off from his years of service.

All in all, this a very interesting mounted EK. I'd love to see some more feedback from everyone - from guys who have already posted on this thread as well as guys like Tiger 1 and Bill M etc..

Brian

[Tim Tezer]

Submitted for you approval (or should I say disapproval), the picture below is the state-of-the-Latvian art. This photo close up was generously provided by an Ebay vendor in Latvia, attached to a "muffin-crown" fake 1870 ek2.



I think it's safe to say that Joseph's oakleaves are NOT the same as this cheesy Latvian fake.

I have seen so many variations of oakleaves, it's hard to define a limited typology of what's supposed to be right. Looking at Joseph's example, the detail is pretty good, so I think for my part I'm going to give it the thumbs up.

Now about that spange... the only other one I have seen without visible beading around the edges of the cross was the one pictured in that BDOS journal article I mentioned. I will have to see if I can locate it and flounder my way through a translation of the German text to see if that sheds any light.

Tim

[Brian S]

It is true there are many varieties of Jubilees. There will still a huge number of these vets alive 25 years later, so that's understandable. The Wiederholungsspange does not conform to what we thought was a single maker and design, Wagner, for a medalbar attachment or a buttonhole slide onto ribbon. Only 900 of these awarded.

I'd defer to a higher authority who's seen one like this.

[Bill M]

--I don't pretend to know much on oaks as they're they're the most mysterious members of the 1870 EK family in my estimation. Lots of different variations, so what I end up looking at carefully is the texture of the leaves,the patina therein and then also the fastening method (lot's of them, there).
--All I can say about the pictured oaks is that there is serious definition in the texture of the leaves (not the veining but the pebbling) and that they have a less beveled edge than most that I've seen. I don't see anything that it screaming 'bad' to me, but as I said these can be a bit of a mystery to me, at least.
--The spange looks a little less detailed than those in my references, a reverse shot would be very telling.
--I like the cross itself and see no problems there.
--I'll try to post an oak or two here for some reference...

[Bill M]

--These are on a prinzen...