Questions on Braunschweig KVK 1 on eBay

[Bobby lee]

In my opinion and given the difficulty of viewing computer images, I fear they are. Variables on the badges are not known. When purchased and where did each item come from? What is the actual color and composition? I can only report that I saw several simular crosses for sale at a show which were not originals but a new production line. I'm sorry, I don't mean to impugn anyone's cross, just reporting what I saw and heard.

[JensF.]

Ok, thanks. I think we should continue this. Maybe someone else can help; maybe with pics of these reproductions or more informations?

[Brian S]

The discussion here on these fine crosses should be about finding a cross with provenance. Fakes have been around for years and years making ID impossible without basis in fact. This cross no different than 1870 EK1's and 2's, Silesian Eagles... Work from provenance. The repros are getting the pins and catches better every day. Just my opinion. Has to be a grouping with one of these around.

From a pure aesthetics viewpoint, crosses in 3 and 11 look very convincing. But just how many manufacturers would you expect to find of these?

[Bobby lee]

Hey Brian, you just don't like my medals it seems. Care to share your cross with us?

[Brian S]

I thought you said the photo you posted was of a reproduction. I thought it looked very good and was surprised at the quality of the oak leaves and crown on a repro.

Actually, I don't have any impierial stuff, I've just been studying it for about 40 years. Hope that's ok.

[Frosch]

Wow

Thanks for the comments and images everybody.

At the back of my mind, I was a bit unsure about the numbers of similar crosses that have been appearing on eBay recently and suspected that there might be some repros around.

I also noticed the minor differences that some of you mentioned, but I don't know enough about them.

I will dust off my scanner and post a couple of images for review.

Has anyone got any definite information about reproduction crosses or is this an unsubstantiated rumour among dealers and advanced collectors, which may turn out to be horribly true?

At the risk of opening a can of worms, please show your crosses and voice your opinions.

Many thanks,

/David

[Mike Kenny]

Hi,

Speaking for myself, my observations on the eBay cross were just that - my unsubstantiated observations and gut feeling. Bobby's info is much more interesting and goes toward confirming my suspicions. Bobby, if there's any chance you can get some snaps of the suspect items (Braunschweig, Meck-Schwerin and Oldenburg) the next time you're at a show that would be appreciated!

Brian, I hear your call for pieces with provenance - I wish I could add something here. None of my examples came from vets (German or US). These days it's hard enough to find a Prussian EK1 with some sort of genuine provenace, let alone a much rarer cross from Braunschweig!

Jens, this is just my opinion, but the pin of the cross in posts 8, 9 & 10 scares the hell out of me. That's not something I've seen on any 1914 to 1945 period EK1 equivalent from any of the Kingdoms/Duchies/etc. It is close to (but not the same as) some of the recent Prussian EK1 repros though. Your second cross is something I'd have gone for a few months ago. Now I'm very cautios about it. Again, these are only my opinions, not based on fact, only experience.

For the discussion, I'm attaching images of my two other Braunschweig KVK1s. The one on the left is I believe of Third Reich period construction (typical hinge and "coke-bottle" main pin). The one on the right is marked for Meybauer, with their classic main pin. It does not look like it from the scans, but the obverse die characteristics are exactly the same on these two crosses. They are different from the eBay cross, so imo Metbauer can be ruled out as a possible maker for the eBay cross (and Jens' post 11 and 12 cross). I have another KVK1 on the way, this one with the classic 20s/30s folded over hinge plate, as found on 1939 Round 3 EK1s and some 1939 Schinkel EK1s. When it arrives and I'm able (in about a months time!), I'll add the pics to the thread for comparison purposes.

Regards
Mike K

PS: Brian, that comment about not having any Imperial Stuff - does that mean your PLM and Panzerkampfwagon are repros - just kidding!

[Mike Kenny]

Reverse images;

[Brian S]

Looks very convincing. So, Meybauer.

But where'd the color go on yours? That nice chocolatey look. A few including Bobby's have that great color.

At your P.S. just throwing bait for bait.

[Dave Danner]

Jens, this is just my opinion, but the pin of the cross in posts 8, 9 & 10 scares the hell out of me. That's not something I've seen on any 1914 to 1945 period EK1 equivalent from any of the Kingdoms/Duchies/etc.

While people on the thread (not you Mike specifically) keep throwing out words like "fake" (which means deliberately and fraudulently made to fool a collector or buyer), keep in mind that in this case you are talking about an award that was not established until March 20, 1918. I would surmise that the majority of Brunswick KVK1s out there are post-war, but produced in the 1920s and 1930s for veterans, and so not "fake" in the loaded sense that we usually use that word.

I agree that Jens' coke-bottle pin example looks like a 3rd Reich-era piece. That means it is not "original" in the sense of a wartime awarded and worn piece, but not "fake" either. The other examples shown which are wider at the base of the arms are also later pieces in my opinion - their dimensions are closer to a WW2 EK than to a WW1 KVK - but that's just my opinion, and both many post-WW1 pieces and post-WW2 pieces (including 57er varieties and fakes) have that characteristic.

[Eric Stahlhut]

I've been in medal shops in Austria where to this day one can still purchase both classes of this medal. The 1st class examples I have handled had either coke-bottle pins or the thin round pins. The glaring difference is the color of the finish: lemony yellow--not at all like Mike's examples. More like the 3rd Reich era awards.

As Dave says...

[Eric Stahlhut]

I would like very much if anyone can tell me if they have seen a similar example-fake or authentic. When I first got it the front screamed 'fake' to me.

[Eric Stahlhut]

When I turned it over and inspected the back, I was taken back a bit. It looks like a sports-badge assembly. To this day I've never seen a comparable example. Has anyone else? One would assume that if it were a repro one would come across it from time to time.

[Brian S]

Great looking hinge on that one. Very interesting. Wouldn't say fake.

[Eric Stahlhut]

Jens,

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that your example in pics #8,9,10 has common characteristics found on the German-made one piece EKs from the 90's except for Mike K. Especially the 'flipped-up' tail of the pin. Think about it.
Don't kill the messenger, please!

I dunno, Brian. Interesting, yes! Authentic 30's era super-rare memorial piece given to widows? Who knows? Fake? probably, but anything is possible.