20mm Mini, Order of the Red Eagle Grand Cross Star

[Roglebk]

As posted above, I'm with Wild Card here. A Kleindekoration fpr RAO1 uses a silver star and a 3rd class cross, but a golden star with RAO3 cross does not make any sense for a Grand Cross. I haven't yet seen a RAO grand cross Kleindekoration, but assume these exist - as Kleindekoration for SAO exist!

Are you talking about the Prussian way Sascha? I'm talking about the Austrian but really appreciate the thoughts on the Prussian too.

So you saw a reduced size SAO GC Cross to be worn with the KD SAO GC Star? Was that GC cross 38mm too and worn on the breast with a single ribbon or on a Medal Bar?

[streptile]

I just hope that I have managed to answer them.

Hi Wild Card,

Thank you for the excellent explanation. It is much clearer, and I admit I had not seen these small decorations in wear before, so it's also very interesting to me.

There is no hidden meaning coupled with these decorations. In essence, what you see is what he’s got. It is a reduced representation of the actual award; and there is no combining of classes. As you say - “Why not just wear a reduced-size version of the award you've actually earned?” That is exactly what a Kleindekoration is supposed to do.

My one remaining question, then, is: why is a Kleindekoration coupled with another award at all? For example, in the case of your set (show below), which is a Kleindekoration of the 1st Class of the RAO, why is it affixed to an RAO3? If you've earned the RAO1, why not just wear the RAO1 Kleindekoration by itself? Would this be possible? And if not, what does the RAO3 add to -- or how does it modify -- the RAO1 Kleindekoration on its ribbon?

[Roglebk]

Wild Card & Sascha> Played a bit, would the RAO GC with Swords 'KD' look something like this on the Prussian uniform?

[Roglebk]

The 1st class and GC looks a lot alike manufacturing wise. Especially the letters and Star.

[Wild Card]

My one remaining question, then, is: why is a Kleindekoration coupled with another award at all? For example, in the case of your set (show below), which is a Kleindekoration of the 1st Class of the RAO, why is it affixed to an RAO3? If you've earned the RAO1, why not just wear the RAO1 Kleindekoration by itself? Would this be possible? And if not, what does the RAO3 add to -- or how does it modify -- the RAO1 Kleindekoration on its ribbon?

Hi Streptile,

If I understand your question correctly, the answer is both simple and complicated at the same time.

As has been pointed out with regard to the full size crosses, there is no difference in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd class crosses, except for their size.

Again, I am speculating. When the Red Eagle Order 1st class Kleindekoration was instituted it was found that rather than producing a special cross for the decoration, the full size third class cross was (close enough to) the right size to be used for this purpose.

So, in this case, the cross has no relation or reference to the 3rd class of the order. It is a Kleindekoration which has a cross that happens to be the same size as a full size 3rd cross, The similarity and relation ends there.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[streptile]

So, in this case, the cross has no relation or reference to the 3rd class of the order. It is a Kleindekoration which has a cross that happens to be the same size as a full size 3rd cross, The similarity and relation ends there.

Ah. This is what I didn't understand. So the "RAO3" is actually operating as a small RAO1, in this case.

Now this sentence makes sense to me as well:

The proper cross for a RAO grand cross Kleindekoration, which would go with your star, is a reduced, approximately 38 mm x 38 mm, version of the grand cross badge.

Thank you again for the clarification.

[Wild Card]

Wild Card & Sascha> Played a bit, would the RAO GC with Swords 'KD' look something like this on the Prussian uniform?

Hello Roglebk,

Nice artwork - very clever.

Now, we are getting into a difficult area - the ribbon.

What is the correct ribbon for a Red Eagle Order grand cross with swords? When it comes to sashes, it would seem that grand crosses with and without swords used the same ribbon. When worn around the neck, I think that that those without swords wore a reduced version of the sash ribbon while those with swords wore an expanded version of the Iron cross ribbon.

Now, referring to Nimmergut we run into some difficulty because while he mentions grand cross Kleindekorations with oakleaves and Kleindekorations with crown and combination of the two, there is no mention of Kleindekoration with swords; so I am at a loss on this matter; but I would be inclined to think that they would both use the white with faded red stripes ribbon.

Your illustration does raise another interesting point though. All Kleindekorations that I have seen have an inverted triangle, Austrian style, ribbon device, as shown in post #35 above and my next post which follows.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[Wild Card]

Stopped by a bank today and picked up a friend who wants to say hello -

[gregM]

well HELLO That's something you don't see everyday.
Chris--Thanks for sharing it with us.

This is a bit off topic but I thought WC might like this--An old
Libig collectors card from 1905 showing the SAO.

[gregM]

Now--back to the original topic

[Roglebk]

What is the correct ribbon for a Red Eagle Order grand cross with swords? When worn around the neck, I think that that those without swords wore a reduced version of the sash ribbon while those with swords wore an expanded version of the Iron cross ribbon.

referring to Nimmergut there is no mention of Kleindekoration with swords; so I am at a loss on this matter; but I would be inclined to think that they would both use the white with faded red stripes ribbon.

Your illustration does raise another interesting point though. All Kleindekorations that I have seen have an inverted triangle, Austrian style, ribbon device, as shown in post #35 above and my next post which follows.

Wild Card

Thanks! Seems that the Austrians were the ones that mostly used the KD's then. Bought a Repro 50mm wide RAO ribbon and will mount it Austrian style with the RAO GC Star. Have not much hope in ever finding a RAO GC KD Cross so might use a RAO3 in the meantime.

[Roglebk]

Stopped by a bank today and picked up a friend who wants to say hello -

Would love too meet your friend in person! Bet my entire collection that the combo is much nicer in real life.

[streptile]

Stopped by a bank today and picked up a friend who wants to say hello -

(<--- this is the first time I've used this smiley, ever.)

The decorations shown in this thread are superb.

Thanks, WCard.

[Roglebk]

This is a bit off topic but I thought WC might like this--An old Libig collectors card from 1905 showing the SAO.

Nice Greg, we better start a new thread devoted to Liebig and other sales Cards soon. Got 2 complete Liebig series together with four 1897 and 1905 Lithographs on German States and World Orders. The Lithos are from 2 German Conversation Lexicons and came with pages with facts about the Orders.

[gregM]

Nice Greg, we better start a new thread devoted to Liebig and other sales Cards soon.

That might be a good idea--I've only got 4 cards but I would like to
see what others have.