Pour le merite "FR" your opinions please!

[Zepenthusiast]

Too bad not to be able to get higher resolution images--so many tantalizing details suggested but not quite discernable! Thanks again for at least posting these, though, Stefan.

The edge views would seem to show something fascinating and puzzling: three seam lines--one up the center, and one just inside each edge margin--implying the hollow construction was built up by addition of rim pieces to the cross faces, the latter being solid stampings, presumably. In this case the pieces have a somewhat triangular form, leading to relatively dramatic tapering from the center toward the points/tips, as Les has just pointed out. That on page 238 of Prussian Blue hints at a similar construction, but the edge pieces are somewhat more trapezoidal: same center thickness, likely, but less tapered/somewhat more squared toward the point/tips.

If memory serves, an edge view was posted (? by Don?) of a hollow silver cross with similar edge tapering. Don't recall if the view showed seams or not, but will need to see if I can find it and prove a match.

Interesting, too, these are all FR marked--? no known Wagner in this form?

So hard to be sure, but I don't think the eagles' feather patterns are an exact match to the hollow gold version--may have needed to do new eagles for these guys to allow for the soldering, etc.

[RAO]

Hi Stef,

wieviel hat der Nachlass gebracht, ich musste leider aussteigen. ;o(

Danke + Gruß Mike

[StefanK.]

.

[RAO]

Stef ????

[Brian S]

I think this went for 26k Euro and I don't think a member here got it?

[Les]

Jim,

So far, no one seems interested in what the "thick" center, with arm profiles that taper towards the ends.

The early war hollow gold W/FR examples with definite provenance tend to be flat in cross section. The later war W/FR solid silver gilt pieces are also flat in cross section.

Anyone want to comment on the "transitional" hollow silver gilt pieces and what their experience is?

I'll toss this out, and let the readers think whatever they like. I know a dealer who sold a "hollow silver gilt" FR marked piece. Not long after that, I saw him at a show with two hollow gold Wagners on his table. Both of them were identical, and they matched the hollow silver gilt piece he had earlier. There might not seem to be anything unusual there, but there was something very different. The gold content on the two "hollow gold" pieces was clearly different. All of these sold, and not that long afterwards, he had another hollow gold example. The dealer seems to be able to rare versions of the PlM, but -very- seldom seems to offer the later war solid silver-gilt W/FR marked pieces.

[Zepenthusiast]

I have gone back and zoomed as much as possible on the posted images of this hollow silver cross. It would appear to me there is a front and back face of reasonable thickness to represent a sheet of formed silver. The sides are formed of variably tapered components which appear to have been soldered to those faces (probably first, forming a "fence" around the perimeter) and then the two halves joined at the centerline. While this may seem overly complex, ponder what other options there are to produce a hollow piece. One could bend the edge around a frame, as was described for early PlMs in Prussian Blue, and then solder/sweat the faces on--not really easy to do either, but consistent with the hollow Godet products pre-1916, which appear to have seams at the edges of the sides and not centrally.

Trying to press two faces with attached, relatively thin sides, then joining those in the centerline would probably be quite difficult to do reproducibly, but could presumably be achieved if one was wiling to produce a "male/female" interacting mold/die combination and then spend the requisite time filing and leveling the cut-off edge to get the two faces to meet in a straight centerline. I would assume this is what is done for an Iron Cross, though??

By contrast, soldering a rim to each face would be time consuming, but relatively straightforward, and the strip material thus attached could be easily conformed to the surface curvature (the tapering toward the tips) with relatively little filing. This rim could be finished externally and blended into near invisibility more easily than the final center seam (and even the latter are often remarkably hard to spot, of course.) Once rimmed/"fenced" all the way around, the two faces could be joined using a lower temperature brazing compound, leaving the more obvious center seam. I submit close analysis of the edges of hollow gold crosses in Prussian Blue suggests just such a situation, with very subtle evidence of a seam running parallel to the edge in places.

Basically, I am suggesting the hollow silver designs do not differ as significantly from the hollow gold as may at first appear to be the case.

I do think there is a bit more taper to the hollow gold Wagner/FR crosses than to the Godets, too, Les.

[Les]

Jim,

Let's not talk about Godet construction with regards to Wagner/Friedlander marked pieces. Doing so is close to talking about apples and pears.

Hollow gold Wagner pieces seen in side views, frequently have a definite center line running down the middle of the arms, and appear to be made by joining the front and back side of the pieces together. There is no center core, rim, or anything between the two sides....on Wagner made pieces.

Some years back (circa 2003?), Bill Schwartz's wife surprised him with the gift of a hollow gold Wagner (identified !) she bought from Nieman for $10k. Bill posted some photos at the time, and one of them if I recall correctly was a direct side view of the arms, with little or no angle showing anything other than the profile of the arms. An archive search for the photos may turn them up.

The edge profile was about as flat as the North German plains where it came from. There was no taper that came anywhere close to the degree of taper the FR marked piece which is the subject of this thread. Bill's piece had some edge rounding on the tips, which is done to prevent the tips from catching on underlying material, etc.

Bill's photos also show the hollow Wagner he owned was made with the two sides joined directly in the middle of the arms, with NO intervening layer.

[Dete]

here are a couple of photos showing the eagles a bit closer.
regards
Detlev

[VtwinVince]

You're right, Les, although I have no experience first hand with PLM's, I have a few PKO's from Wagner, and the hollow gilt examples do have a 'seam' running down the edges of the arms, clearly where they were soldered together.

[StefanK.]

I am speechless

[Dete]

Hello,

coming back to this thread, i think t was not mentioned so far that the PLM together with the award doc etc. belonged to General der Infanterie Freiherr Walter von Schleinitz. If anyone has pictures of him, i really would appreciate if he can show them here or send me a PM.
best regards
Detlev