ebay PlM "verified" by experts on WAF

[Les]

That's what the seller says...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...E:B:SS:US:1123

[DavidM]

Hello

The PLM was indeed discussed on this forum:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...pour+le+merite

Only my opinion, but not quite the discussion intimated in the E Bay sales pitch though, but no lies, it was discussed on here and it would appear (from those that joined in the debate) to be a 1950s/60s S&L PLM.

Regards
David

[saschaw]

What a Bull****... sorry.

"the only authorized German Government manufacturer who only manufactured a limited number of replacement PLM after WWII as an official replacement award"

[Brian S]

Reading through the description, I see nothing wrong with the description. It's said to be a late 1950's, could be 60's or later, but still...

It's priced accordingly.

I'm a purist, show me the deceit. I just don't see it.

If someone bids it up to several thousand dollars that's their stupidity.

The ribbon is the ribbon that came with these S&L's. Not at all like the period ribbon.

It is what it is...

I think the only misperception might be that S&L made these ONLY as replacements for original recipients. I believe it would be more accurate to say, if you say anything, that these were available from S&L whether you were a collector, recipient, or anyone with the cash to purchase it.

[speedytop]

Hi,

"... a scarce original S&L PLM verified by experts"

"... Steinhauer & Lueck the only authorized German Government manufacturer who only manufactured a limited number of replacement PLM after WWII as an official replacement award..."

It was not German Government authorized and it was not an official replacement award!

It is simply a post WWII copy (Kopie = not original).

I can only agree to saschaw: "What a Bull****... sorry."

That is correct: "... these were available from S&L whether you were a collector, recipient, or anyone with the cash to purchase it."

Uwe

[Zepenthusiast]

It is in the use of that word "official" that the seller, who is otherwise being honest in this auction, may be leading (I won't say "misleading" as I don't claim to know his motivation or understanding) potential buyers astray. While Brian is right that caveat emptor applies to anyone choosing to purchase, what is of some concern is this forum is being cited as endorsing the "official" status of the S & L and the supposition it was utilized on some kind of specific or regular basis as a replacement copy for members of the order. We know one S & L was presented to Ernst Junger in accompaniment of his 50 year crown, but the idea that any other recipient bought, purchased or received one remains academic speculation, if I haven't missed something among the WAF threads. That is, while S & Ls exist in displays and museum collections attributed to other PlM recipients, there is not photographic or testimonial evidence they were actually worn by same (and proving they are not substitutes placed for purposes of the display.) It's another good reminder there are "real-world" consequences to how one states theory and belief vs. provable fact.

[Valter Gorenc]

IMHO it's only good to cite WAF as an "expert" source. It undoubtedly is, and if a potential buyer has a tiny bit of concern and awareness, he/she will check at this forum and find the whole truth. Dishonest sellers are trying to deny the sole existence of WAF, let alone it's expert abilities, as we're ruining their crooked business.

[Brian S]

I don't think an S&L would be worth any more if my grandfather had purchased one or two or three of these and paraded around Wiesbaden.

For me it's still all about Wagner and FR die struck PlMs.

[Zepenthusiast]

If he had, though, Brian, it would at least make it fair to say there definitely were more than one known PlM recipient who wore the S&L as a kind of recognized "replacement" choice. I imagine that would add value in the eyes of many collectors. The likelihood it would add value is implicit in the citation of such a "history" in the auction write-up. People who don't have or can't afford a Wagner will still tend to pay more for something perceived to be "legitimized" by being worn by recipients.

[Zepenthusiast]

Just to be clear, I don't think anyone is trying to state the S&Ls were not a favored post-WWII choice of recipients "unofficially." That is a fair question for exploration and perhaps more evidence will emerge one way or the other. Current evidence in favor would seem to be slim. There needs to be quite a bit more I'd think, before the claim is used to boost prices on eBay with "WAF verification."

[Les]

Just to be clear, I don't think anyone is trying to state the S&Ls were not a favored post-WWII choice of recipients "unofficially." That is a fair question for exploration and perhaps more evidence will emerge one way or the other. Current evidence in favor would seem to be slim. There needs to be quite a bit more I'd think, before the claim is used to boost prices on eBay with "WAF verification."

Junger's name get's brought up a time or two with regards to the S&L's. He had one that he kept in a box, and is on display at his house (now museum) in the same box it came in. Yes, he had one, but there is no proof he -wore- it or used it to show visitors. The piece does not have the 50 year crown and it was not given to him on the anniversary of his "50th". How he got it, is guesswork.

There are a few other S&L type pieces attributed to various recipients that are on display in museums, but as with the Junger museum piece in Widflingen, they may be nothing more than a "museum display" rather than putting the actual item on display.

From time to time, claims have been made that S&L made PlMs prior to the revised German laws of 1957. Although the firm was in business prior to 1945, and is still around today, there is no record in their files of ever having produced one before 1957. The photographic evidence put forward to make the claim they did....doesn't cut the mustard.

The S&L copies (or fakes if you will) were never formally recognized by the post-war German government, nor were they given as substitutes to recipients who wanted a "spare". They have no official standing and were made for the collector market, and not for the very small number of living recipients (less than 30 in 1957) at that time.

Considering the prices a real PlM brings, most collectors will be lucky to see and handle a few real ones in their lives and will never have the money to afford one. The S&L post war pieces made by the company were produced in large numbers for the collector market, because there were only a very small number of original produced during the war. Brian, want to repeat the number?

What the seller is doing, is carefully using words and a story line to get someone to buy his story and the piece. Stories don't make something real. Neither does using a group of people on a forum, or a single person/dealer who says something the dealer quotes, make it real.

Before someone buys expensive things, they should take the time to read, read, and read more on whatever it is. They should know enough about the specific item and be able to decide on their own, if it is real or not, good or bad.

If you rely on the word of a dealer, you might be able to return it and get your money back. If you rely on the word of a person and their opinion, what do you do if they turn out to be wrong? What do you do if the majority of the people on a forum -think- it's good, and then later, the piece turns out to be bad? Are they going to give you your money back if they turn out to be wrong?

Forums and advice from others can be useful, particularly in pointing out known fakes.

[Zepenthusiast]

Well put, Les, and brings home how easily "history" can evolve if one doesn't closely watch one's facts: notably I also parroted the Junger-gets-S&L PlM-with-50-year-crown legend below just a bit earlier in this thread. One reads or hears such things and can all too easily repeat them.

[Brian S]

Les is always more! OK Les, 2010

[regular122]

This looks like forum member Daryl P's old piece and is the second time it has appeared on eBay in the last few months.

I think the first time, it went for something like $800 or so US. The first time it sold, it did not have quite the embellishment but rather stated it was an S&L made around 1960 and vended in occupied Berlin. As an S&L piece, it is one of the nicer ones with the case and card.

Original? Appears to be an authentic post-war S&L and an earlier one at that. Scarce? Not really unless the comment was about the vender's card. That would be scarce in my opinion.

The S&L discussion in my thread was to explore when and where they were made and to establish them as more than mere junk, as they were made (and pretty well) by a well-known manufacturer of German decorations and badges. Nothing conclusive came of it other than all agreed post-war, post 1957 and up to the early 1980s. Beyond that, nothing to my knowledge has been discovered. Steve

[darryl-P]

Steve,

You are correct. That S&L PLM was mine and I sold it on eBay a while ago for about $720. The buyer (she's the current eBay seller) complained about the amount of money to ship to Australia (post office calls those shots, not me) and that the medal was of poor quality and was not an S&L example. Well, lookey now...all of a sudden it's the quintessential piece and all-singing and all-dancing. What an about-turn.

Not someone I would like to deal with again.