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**regular122** · 01-31-2010, 09:27 PM

Originally posted by darryl-P View Post

Steve,

You are correct. That S&L PLM was mine and I sold it on eBay a while ago for about $720. The buyer (she's the current eBay seller) complained about the amount of money to ship to Australia (post office calls those shots, not me) and that the medal was of poor quality and was not an S&L example. Well, lookey now...all of a sudden it's the quintessential piece and all-singing and all-dancing. What an about-turn.

Not someone I would like to deal with again.

Sorry to hear that Darryl. I considered it long and hard when you vended it the first time but the budget caught me short. It is amazing how the old proverb comes to mind, "It is naught, it is naught says the buyer, but when he departs, he boasts of his bargain (Prov. 20:14)." Perhaps she will sit on it for a while.

It is still a fine S&L. Steve

**PaulMann** · 01-31-2010, 10:59 PM

sometimes...

,,It's the seller who needs to beware!

**Z19** · 02-01-2010, 08:58 AM

Ebay

Hey guys, is it just me or does a dealer who probably could care less about our forum throwing the good name of the WAF around on ebay like it's some type of free authentication service bother you guys as well?? Alex

**Wild Card** · 02-01-2010, 09:19 AM

Originally posted by Z19 View Post

Hey guys, is it just me or does a dealer who probably could care less about our forum throwing the good name of the WAF around on ebay like it's some type of free authentication service bother you guys as well?? Alex

I have been pondering this situation since it was first posted; and while I feel that there are some potentially positive aspects to it, such as more visibility within the collecting community, in the end, yes Z19, it does bother me.

Regards,

Wild Card

**Zepenthusiast** · 02-06-2010, 02:24 PM

Given the origin of this thread, will note final sale price of the S&L provoking it was
AU $1,136.00 (Approximately US $982.41.) Not perhaps unreasonable for the quality of the specimen and its documentation. Should come with a copy of the thread!

**Brian S** · 02-06-2010, 02:48 PM

Originally posted by Zepenthusiast View Post

Given the origin of this thread, will note final sale price of the S&L provoking it was
AU $1,136.00 (Approximately US $982.41.) Not perhaps unreasonable for the quality of the specimen and its documentation. Should come with a copy of the thread!

Completely unreasonable price. As noted by two of us, the PlM in the display does NOT match the postwar PlM. NO publicatoins put a PlM in their manufacture.

My offer for any PlM by S&L not to exceed US $100.

**streptile** · 02-06-2010, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by Brian S View Post

One thing is absolutely certain, S&L did not manufacture PlMs previous to 1945.

I think that's going a bit too far. The one thing that is absolutely certain is that we do not now have any conclusive evidence to establish that S&L made the PLM before 1945. Some may yet come to light, who knows?

**Brian S** · 02-06-2010, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by streptile View Post

I think that's going a bit too far. The one thing that is absolutely certain is that we do not now have any conclusive evidence to establish that S&L made the PLM before 1945. Some may yet come to light, who knows?

What goes to far is people trying to make a silk purse from a sow's ear.

Why don't you revisit any proof that you have that S&L did make PlMs before 1945. There is NONE. And this photo only provides evidence they hung a PlM made by Wagner in their show room for lack of one made by them. Now until you have proof to the contrary why don't you stop propping up the values of S&L with nonsense like this.

This is no more useful than saying Hitler is still alive and "some evidence may yet come to light, who knows, to the contrary."

You do this hobby no good to suggest people should buying these mostly horribly created PlMs for the possible benefit to them one day that they are real wartime created pieces. They are not. They are not because no evidence has EVER surfaced that they are. Quite to the contrary. The evidence is all stacked against it.

You have no catalog they produced a PlM.

You have evidence that in 1941 they hung a Wagner in their showroom.

Given the TOTAL darth of demand after 1941 given Godet's presence, why start now?

No evidence they did. Stop propping up values with your nonsense by suggesting "proof may one day come". Nonsense and really irresponsible to the hobby to suggest otherwise.

$1,000 is proof people expect something that isn't available on these S&L PlM "pieces".

**Dietrich Maerz** · 02-06-2010, 05:10 PM

Originally posted by Leroy View Post

In the printed article, from 1953, the dealer is described as selling badges and decorations to "entitled veterans" (but you can assume, for argument's sake here, that he sold to anyone) and his principal source is said to be S&L. It is entirely possible that his principal source was S&L, but has anyone ever shown an example of what he was selling? NO.

The article mentions Steinhauer & Lück by name and also says that within 4 weeks everything is available. The article also states that the gentleman did not sell old stock but that it is proven by the invoice dates that he got the wares after the war.

Attached Files

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**Leroy** · 02-06-2010, 06:04 PM

Originally posted by Dietrich Maerz View Post

The article mentions Steinhauer & Lück by name and also says that within 4 weeks everything is available. The article also states that the gentleman did not sell old stock but that it is proven by the invoice dates that he got the wares after the war.

Of course he got it after the war! It was material S&L still had on hand and was glad to sell! I could have gone to FLL, or Deumer, or just about anyone else that was still standing and bought their old stock, too, in 1953. I bet they would have given me an invoice, too.

Yes, you could put in a special order and get what you wanted, in FOUR WEEKS! Any examples of what might take FOUR WEEKS? Any idea of how many times that actually even happened? No. This from a company that is just up the road a few miles????? I suppose you could have special ordered the German Order and in four weeks, S&L would find you one somewhere (from Souval, maybe?).

Please show close-ups of examples of what he had in his shop from S&L in 1953.

Mr. Knoth's business was so successful, and his wares so in demand, that he ran it out of the back of his tobacco shop. Very impressive! I suppose he was the Pablo Escobar of his day.......

**Dietrich Maerz** · 02-06-2010, 06:10 PM

We might never know what maker he was selling but the connection with one company is mentioned by name. It says "Sometimes Mr. Knoth sends his customers directly to his main supplier Steinhauer & Luck in Lüdenscheid." I think this is pretty clear.

**Don D.** · 02-06-2010, 06:15 PM

"Main supplier" implies he had more than one.

**Leroy** · 02-06-2010, 06:23 PM

Originally posted by Dietrich Maerz View Post

We might never know what maker he was selling but the connection with one company is mentioned by name. It says "Sometimes Mr. Knoth sends his customers directly to his main supplier Steinhauer & Luck in Lüdenscheid." I think this is pretty clear.

And.....?

So what? God only knows what they had still around in 1953, or could access with a telephone call.

Here's a close-up of the photo in the article. Certainly, we should all be able to tell immediately that this is a fake RK....

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**Brian S** · 02-06-2010, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by Les View Post

The claim -everything- in the cases was made by S&L. We're told a firm with a sense of pride in what they make, wouldn't offer something made by another firm.

To all of that, how does that set with the fact that if S&L did make -all- of those items, that some of those items don't appear in their 1939 or 1941 catalogs? Making dies to stamp low production run medals means the production costs are going to be high, and one would -think- including all of the products made by the firm would be included.

So far, no genuine S&L maker marked China Denkmunze medals, pre-1945 marked S&L PlMs, and LCTB are known (and to be genuine).

Why be reluctant to sell some other firms "stuff" and then mark -some- of your own, but not all of it? Also, why not include those low production, and possibly resultant high cost pieces in the catalog?

Not wanting to sell some other firms items, and being reluctant to advertise and mark -all- of the items being attributed to the firm doesn't add up and argues against the claim S&L "made it all."

If S&L did place their own markings on items made by other firms, they'd have been in the same type of trouble one TR era firm did when they sold German Crosses they specifically claimed as the product of their own firm when another firm actually made them.

There's another agenda at work here... Experienced collectors know exactly what you are saying Les, and others are recklessly throwing out spurious hope to people who hold worthless postwar fakes.

**Brian S** · 02-06-2010, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by Zepenthusiast View Post

In fairness to S&L's version of the PlM from the 1950s, it deserves to be appreciated as the art it is. They made what they did then for a specific reason, one could say as a tribute to the order, in recognition of its historical importance (and meaning to the German people) as well as to satisfy collector interest, no doubt. That S&L as a respected German jeweler made a replica cross, commonly of fairly good quality, is itself a part of the history of the order, even if not that of its wartime issue. To disparage it at worthless (or worth less than $100 at any rate) is much the same as saying no one should ever buy a print of an artist's original work, or no one should ever pay for a ticket to see a good Elvis impersonator in Vegas. Most of the latter probably don't think it really is Elvis, I'd guess, but capturing the feel of the concert is worth it to them. A 1950-something S&L is not a Wagner PlM, but it is what it is, is often well-crafted, and deserves to have a value of its own, as long as the TRUTH is known to the buyer (the whole origin of this thread.) The relatively substantial value of a quality S&L is in fact a tribute to the value and mystique of the original--that being currently more than 35 times higher yet.

They made it for profit. Nothing else. No tribute, no good intentions, and they sold it to anyone who wanted to buy it for any reason.

And $100 would be a real stretch for me to reach into my pocket and pay for one of these. It's a trinket that looks like the original. Nothing more. Go look at their web site today. Are those tributes? No.

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