1813 EKs - ...question.

[AlikN]

Hello,

I think that it would be interesting to read how the Iron Cross was described in Gottschalck's "Almanach der Ritter=Orden", Leipzig, Goeschen, 1819, page 146:

"ORDEN DES EISERNEN KREUZES.
Unter alle Orden, die je gestiftet worden sind, ist wohl keiner so sinnvoll, keiner für einen so hohen, herrlichen Zweck, keiner in sich so einfach, so prunklos, und doch so bedeutungsreich und mit so vieler Eigenthümlichkeit ausgedacht worden, als der Orden des eisernen Kreuzes.".

Best wishes,

Elmar Lang

English version by on-line translator :

ORDERS OF THE IRON CROSS.
Under all orders which have ever been donated nobody is probably so sensible, unostentatious nobody for such a high, marvelous purpose, nobody in itself so simply, thus, and rich in meaning however, thus and been devised with so many Eigenthümlichkeit, as the order of the iron cross.

[CSForrester]

Gentlemen, the word "order" was never used in the statutes or any official publication of the prussian kingdom or the General-Ordens-Kommission, you only find it in popular, patriotic publications. Orders were 1813-1815 still only awarded to officers or persons of nobility.
The retourning of crosses after the death of the reciepient was obligate for a long time. The "Koeniglich Preussische Ordensliste 1817" contains all regulations until 1817 and there it is clearly said, that the crosses of death recepients has to be returned to the regiment where he served at least before his commission. This was altered in 1817, after that the cross had to be returnded to the regiment the recepient served while he won the iron cross.
In the 1820 years it changed again, and the crosses had to be returned to the General-Ordens-Kommission in Berlin. The number of returnded crosses were to small for the final awardings to the remaining "Erben" and the GOK ordered in 1834 new crosses to bring these "Vererbungen" to an end. In July 1839 the awards were completed and no further awards were made. The order to the GOK how to handle returnded crosses in the future was:
-the silver frames should be melted at the Berlin mint
-the iron cores should be stored (dont know at the GOK or in the Zeughaus)
The Iron Crosses of 1870 had also be returnd after the death of the recipient and there are still documents in the Preussisches Staatsarchiv, that over 6.000 2nd classes 1870 were returned. This sources were discovered by a well known german collector in the last years and i am not allowed to write more, a very surprising publication will follow in the next years.
The General-Ordens-Kommission was very inconsequent and allowed many relatives of the recipient to keep the iron crosses in the family. We have seen such a document in SDA some weeks ago.

Regards
Marku

[Don D.]

Very interesting Marku. Thanks for posting that. I guess my question would be, "Did that only apply to officially awarded pieces?"

[CSForrester]

Don,

that did only apply for the official awarded pieces. The man who died and the following recipient who got his cross were published in the Militaer-Wochenblatt. Until 1834 the Iron Crosses, awarded during 1813-1817 were given back and awarded again. This process was to slowly and many herits had to wait, so in 1834 the General-Ordenskommission ordered new crosses, the so called "Vererbungs-Serie" and als herits got their crosses until july 1839.


Regards
Markus

[Don D.]

thanks again.

[CSForrester]

And an addition, citation from Heyde,page 63:

Order of Koenig Wilhelm I., 5. April 1870:

"King Wilhelm I. gave the order, that the .... iron cores of the Iron Crosses 1813, stored at the General-Ordenskommission, shall be brought to the Zeughaus (artillery-depot) and be stored there in future. Iron Crosses 1813 can be from now on be kept by the relatives (auf Antrag (?)) , because the case of iron cross 1813 is definitly closed by the GOK."

Sorry again for my pigeon-english .....

Regards
Markus

[Montgomery Burns]

well,, I have some nice stuff ,,,to go back to what this thread was about .

a potential maker off 1813 core's ?

wideframe's ,,,????

[Montgomery Burns]

,,

[Montgomery Burns]

these day's its called TUI travelling agency .....

[Montgomery Burns]

and I had to have the cross along with it .......to make it complete



regards kay

[Don D.]

Don't tease us Kay. Let's see some full sized pics of the cross.

[Brian S]

Come on!!! That's to cool, let's see it.

[Montgomery Burns]

here it is

but I do note here that throe my own investigations ,,and collecting off period documents and pictures ...( earliest usable detailed picture off an ek 1813 I have is 1913 )

I consider this 1813 to be ,,,,the 3'th iron core type off the ek 1813 I know off until today ....

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...hlight=ek+1813...

[Montgomery Burns]

PS,,,period books from 1913 tel me that the kaiser himself called the ek 1813 an ORDEN
and therefore leave all discussions about the subjekt to rest

as there was already a discussion on going at 1813

second ,,

about returning the ek after dead ,,

soon in to the ware it was clear that there where not enough ek's 1813 available .

so the vererbung came in to the picture ,,(((((excluding by the way the ek 1813)))))
you die ,,,the next in line in the regiments wood get it,,(there was a list fore it )
257 officers and 6084 ,regular soldiers where on the list .

that regulation stopped at 1837 ,,31 December,,,,
where the Kaiser himself handed out the last ek 1813 ,,,( that wood be ek2 's ) .

ps ,,only Woman getting the ek 1813 was Auguste Krüger,( unteroffizier 9 regiment )

last official happening around the ek 1813 was dated 1863 , 17 march . Berlin.

the 50's anniversary off the freedom war 1813..
2400 knight off the order present fore that happening ...




so ,I think its safe to say that production time span off the ek 1813 is possible longer then 50 years .






















.

[saschaw]

Kai, which Kaiser did award EKs in 1813? Napoleon?!



The EKs of 1813, 1870 and 1914 are not orders ("Orden"), but decorations ("Ehrenzeichen"). I do not think there is any doubt in this known fact. The EK was not an order until Hitler introduced his EK in 1939.