1813 EKs - ...question.

[streptile]

Sorry for my bad english, hard stuff to explain with my few words ......

Your english is excellent and the information is fascinating. Thank you.

Where is that regimental flagpole now?

[CSForrester]

The GdC standard survived the war and travelled through Germany, from Berlin to deep mines in the Harz-mountains, to barracks in Wuerttemberg, to Burg Hohenzollern, Museum in Rastatt - and is now back in Berlin in the Deutsches Historisches Museum. Far as i know only missing are the decorations of the Black Eagle-Order, you see the yellow sash on the picture, but cross and star were lost on the long way. Otherwise the picture shows the standard as you can see it now in Berlin.
Decorations for prussian flags and standards are my special interest and i had the luck to get a lot of very good informations, sources, pictures from friends as Mike and Mike, museums and original sources. But i can not tell the whole story here and can not show all the pics....... please be patient, i will work it out for the public. But a small cutout of an 1870 GK-streamer will give some hint on the construction of these Grandcrosses.

Best regards
Markus

[streptile]

Very interesting photo! Are we seeing the thread-weave of the streamer through a broken core? Or do we see a corrugated back-side of the reverse core?

I will look forward to whatever you have to present on these interesting pieces. I guess it will be presented on SDA or in a print publication?

[oldflagswanted]

IC-GC award repeat streamer ???

...the one on the streamer is an 1870?

Trevor:
Yes, the IC-GC award repeat streamers are 1870's, ~43 were awarded to
those fahnen & standarten already previously awarded the 1813 IC-GC pole top.
....................... OLDFLAGSWANTED .................

[CSForrester]

We see the thread-wave of the 11cm wide EK-ribbon through a broken half of the core. The core of the Grandcrosses on these streamer was made in two parts and fitted to the ribbon with rivets. The rivets were soldered to the front-half of the frame and riveted on the reverse, so you can see the heads of the rivets on the reverse-half of the frame.
I think it will come printed, but give me some more time ...... first chapter about decorations for prussian flags will come in spring 2010 in the BDOS-magazine.

Markus

[streptile]

Sounds great. I need to subscribe to that magazine. Thanks Markus + oldflags.

[oldflagswanted]

...Are we seeing the thread-weave of the streamer through a broken core? ...

Trevor:
You are "seeing the thread-weave of the streamer through..." the IC-GC hole.
.................... OLDFLAGSWANTED ...................

[AlikN]

Great pictures Marcus & Oldflags........Thanks!

Hey Alikn,
I remember you posted that cross a while back and were considering buying it. For me, personally, that's a good one. If it's still available, and it's within your means, I'd get it. I'd say it's a "second batch," like the one Marshall has. The problems with buying one of the "first batches" have been well articulated by Brian....

Yes, that is the one, but by the time I was considering price went up, at S.O.S 2009 what the guy was asking, now he is asking 60% more.....so I am still looking around and just trying to get to know more.

......
EKs were returned. Private purchase were not.

...

I wonder why would the government need to take the awards back after the death of the recipient,
...and if there was a shortage in crosses to award, probably no private purchase was available yet either.

[Biro]

...I wonder why would the government need to take the awards back after the death of the recipient....

So they could be re-awarded to the 'next in line' for receiving a cross.

Scarcity was such that crosses were (officially) re-cycled through different owners many times over.

..and if there was a shortage in crosses to award, probably no private purchase was available yet either....

It was the manufacturing difficulties and expense that made them so scarce and any and all awards manufactured would have been dedicated strictly to the supplying of the next elligible recipient. I can't imagine private purchase was EVER an option in the case of the 1813 series, but that is something we will truly never know.

Marshall

[Brian S]

I wonder why would the government need to take the awards back after the death of the recipient,
...and if there was a shortage in crosses to award, probably no private purchase was available yet either.

Yikes, that's the way it was, and no, not suggesting private purchase EK's but there were private purchase awards... PlMs for example, were RETURNED. This was taken VERY seriously and obeyed.

[AlikN]

....From Dierike orders 500 EK II and 100 (!) GK, the version should occur – in spite of technical difficulties – in Wroclaw.
26th May major of Thile (Wroclaw HQ) writes in v. Dierike, 100 GK are probably a little bit a lot ...... he asks of it for the time being only 6 copies in Wroclaw for his continuance to let touch, nevertheless, sends a reminder urgently „ to small crosses “.

Interesting to note in that translation, that there was an order for 100 GCs and for the time being they got only 6, ....so who knows how many more were made later on.
Most likely at the later institution of the award - 1870,1914 and 1939 orders on GCs probably were in some NN-numbers, specially without knowing ahead how many awards will be needed. So my point is, it is not a correct assumption that all originals are counted for and no other can be in existence, I am sure they made more and a few maybe were taken as a suvenirs during ww2 and may savvied somewhere in collections or museums, .... as long as it looks in all aspects as original --- it is original.

[AlikN]

Thanks for the explanation of the re-cycle process .....,
...by looking at Marcus's cross, so much wear, very possible was awarded twice (double award piece............)

[Biro]

Sorry - can I just clarify that after a certain date, private purchase 1813 EK's were indeed an option for the wealthy gent... the Prinzengröße series being a prime example... but that availability would surely have been MANY many decades after the war. Guesses are circa 1840 (post the 2nd batch..)

Marshall

[Brian S]

.... as long as it looks in all aspects as original --- it is original.

Absolutely not. Have you never seen a good fake?

[AlikN]

Absolutely not. Have you never seen a good fake?

No, please show me one good fake of GC that looks like an original in all aspects, meaning cast iron core with correct finish, correct frames and the way they assembled.