U-Boat badge

[leibregiment]

Welcome your thoughts, as ever thanks, Paul

[leibregiment]

2

[Gary Symonds]

It looks like it was made by Maybauer. I think it is an original. The quality is certainly there.

[Don D.]

I don't like how soft the reverse looks. The edges have a rounded appearance that you find on cast items. Compare it with the badges posted here to see what I mean: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=397608

Having said that, I hope to be corrected as the front looks nice.

[ChrisH]

i dont like it ........ and the Meybauer logo is too bige size too

[epsomgreen]

Interesting. The obverse of Paul's U-Bootkreigsabzeichen resembles a Schot made badge. Here is mine for comparison:





Crown detail:



However, the reverse of Paul's badge, with its distinctive pin, is in the style of Meybauer. Below is my Meybauer (please note, using Photoshop eraser and magic eraser tools to create a neutral background is guaranteed to alter edge detail with irregular pixels):





Hallmark detail:



As one can readily see, the obverse of a true Meybauer lacks the superb detail of a Schot badge.

I hope this helps,

Charles

[leibregiment]

I am looking to put it on e-stand with this.....as they came together, I am looking to trade them on....

[Don D.]

Charles, your Schot mark is not the typical one I'm familar with. Schot was not the maker of these either. He designed the badge. See this thread: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ighlight=schot

[rhudspith]

I'm afraid I have to agree with the guys, the only badge I like in this thread is charles' maybauer.

The badge that started the post looks like a copy to me, poor maker mark. Also the schot badge does not look good or has the accepted style of maker mark also. I think a bit more research or other comments will show this to be a well known copy

[epsomgreen]

Charles, your Schot mark is not the typical one I'm familar with. Schot was not the maker of these either. He designed the badge.

Hi Don:

Is there a reference you might direct me to that discusses this in detail? I've often heard of badges "designed by," or "subcontracted to," etc., but the sources always seem circumstantial. This subject baffles me, and I would like to know from where the knowledge originates.

I am familiar with the style of "Schot" badge to which you linked in posting #8. However, with respect to Rob's comment about a "well known" copy, I would submit this represents the archetype for the majority of copies on the market. To clarify, I am not insinuating that "BadBob's" badge is a fake (thereby validating mine), merely that BadBob's badge has been faked.

Here is such a copy:





I have encountered two variations of this copy, those marked "Schot" and those unmarked. In addition to the poor detail of the obverse, the reverse has been scarified on a grinder to eliminate the telltale casting flaws and the crown always comes to a point.

Nevertheless, a grinder can't remove the casting flaws on the obverse, and the most obvious, and damning, is this (the mother of all air holes):





It gets even worse when the copy is also faked:



I wish I had a dollar for every time one of these was described as eines der wenigen verliehenen Originale.

Now, where does this leave my "Schot" marked badge? If it's a fake, it's an extremely impressive one, superior to acknowledged originals in every respect. The badge is finely gilt and doesn't hide behind a bogus patina promulgating it as "salty." Furthermore, the detail is astounding. Here's a comparison…



…and a composite:



If a bit more research or other comments can nail down my well known copy, bring 'em on. I want to know. I realize this reads as petty and defensive, but I sincerely would like to know, and speculation doesn't help. Furthermore, the reverse of my "Schot" is noticeably different when compared to Paul's; there is nothing soft or rounded about it, and the pins speak for themselves. Regarding the obverse, the Boot hull on Paul's badge displays dimples and vertical striae not present on my badge.

In conclusion, none of this helps Paul. Muddy waters run deep. The Marine Eichenlaub mit Kaiserkrone und Kokarde, however, is rock solid, and I would encourage everyone to look at this sister thread HERE where many Marine visors are displayed.

Regards,

Charles

[leibregiment]

Close up, hope this helps

[Don D.]

"I realize this reads as petty and defensive" yes Charles, and totally understandable. It is not always easy to hear a beloved item may be bad. I've had that feeling many times. Here is a textbook badge of Jody's:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ghlight=schott

The term "fec" is an abbreiviation for designed by or some such simular meaning. These badges must have grind marks on the reverse to be good.

ps- I don't enjoy telling people I think they may have a bad item.

[rhudspith]

"I realize this reads as petty and defensive" yes Charles, and totally understandable. It is not always easy to hear a beloved item may be bad. I've had that feeling many times. Here is a textbook badge of Jody's:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ghlight=schott

The term "fec" is an abbreiviation for designed by or some such simular meaning. These badges must have grind marks on the reverse to be good.

ps- I don't enjoy telling people I think they may have a bad item.

IMO the Schot type shown by Jody is the only one I would have in my collection. Quailty is not always a sign of originality, sometimes fakes have more detail than originals. There are a couple of things that I would be uncomfortable about your badge, these are

1) IMO Incorrect "maker" mark, should have the extend stroke across the T.

2) Looking the outside of the wreath from the reverse you can see the outlines of the leaves on the right hand side, no outlines on left, it is a smooth curve. This feature would make me look twice at any naval badge. I personally have not yet seen an original badge with this feature

3) The position of the pin looks a little low, I would normally expect this to be found on the top of the badge on these

4) Uneven width to the barrel hinge on either side of the pin

5) If we are agreed? that the type shown by jody is an original "Schot" type then when you compare the two obverses you can see that they are completly different dies. How can that be.

I think Don was trying to give you some pointers and links to steer you in the right direction to investigate a bit more for yourself. My points above are given in the same manner. If after all your investigation you are still happy with the badge then thats OK by me to.

Finally to clear up "Fec" which on some fakes is misspelled "Foc" is short for the latin "Fecit" which litterally means made/created by, is has nothing to do with the actual making or manufacturer of the badge. In German badge terms it can be translated as "Designed by" and is often found on the back of TR Schwerin naval badges which have the designers name on. Check out the HSF, 2nd Eboat, Blockade Runner, Minesweeper

[epsomgreen]

…and, yet, Jody's textbook badge displays the same extraneous casting crud between the circlet and right arch.

Don, Rob:

Despite what you may think, I do appreciate the feedback.

With respect to the points made by Rob, specifically 2 and 3, it bears repeating that by employing the Photoshop eraser and magic eraser tools to eliminate shadows, the edges have been altered with irregular pixels. Those "bumps" visible from the reverse side coincide with the flag and rudder at the Boot's stern. My picture exaggerates their prominence. Furthermore, because I am not able, with my equipment, to photograph an object directly overhead, perspective is also altered. The barrel hinge measures approximately 2.9 mm top and precisely 3 mm bottom. I imagine the top of the hinge would be visible from the badge obverse were this not the case. However, at least the end of the pin is not visible from the front as is the case with Jody's badge.

So, Paul and I are in the same boat (no pun intended): two "spurious" badges, a boatload of conjecture, and nary a reference to be cited. On this same forum, I saw a "Schot" Zeppelin Commemorative pooh-poohed because it had the extended "T," and the theory of the day was this represented a major no-no.

I still find Paul's badge interesting, and offered another "Meybauer" for comparsion as well as a badge marked "Schot." What has been learned? "Not in my collection! Yuck!"

Understood, but I always wish I could learn something more illuminating here.

"Data! Data! Data!" he cried impatiently. "I can't make bricks without clay." -- Arthur Conan Doyle.

Regards,

Charles

[Don D.]

Charles, we are all here to learn. Take away from this thread what you will.