Navy ribbon bar help please

[Daniel Krause]

Hi Imperials,

I have this navy bar in my collection. Unfortunately I have no navy ranklist. So maybe some of You may help me to ID him.
He has: EK2 14, probably a Hohenzollern X, Oldenburg FAK, Austrian MMC with war dec., Red Eagle, XXV or Landwehr XX, Centenary and a peacetime Oldenburg house order knight.

Many thanks and best regards

Daniel

[Daniel Krause]

and the reverse:

[Rick Research]

Huh! I don't turn anybody up, even trying the OTHER things that ribbons could be (Oldenburg Lifesaving Medal, etc).

Frustrating.

I wonder if this was an ARMY bar, with the backing most unusually in navy color just to drive us insane....

[stevenn]

navy?

Why would they put a house order at the end?Could it be in 3rd place and the final Olden'g ribbon be from one of their post war honours such as decoration for industry and commerce,or police,etc.Perhaps it would have been easier to figure out a bar composed of all Austrian bravery ribbons without ribbon devices ?I think this is a prime example of what Rick told me about Olde'g and Austria:they are a challenge because each uses the "one ribbon fits all" approach.
I'm still trying to understand the order of precedence thing,but when I look at Rick's article on Weimar Rep. ,bars just become unintelligable and we may as well throw out the normal precedence rules as they don't apply to post WW1 German bars.So, the question I started with is not meant to be a challenge of any one's opinion,but a real matter of my curiosity and desire to learn.

[Rick Research]

Oldenburg, like a surprising number of the Imperial states, had NO official precedence regulations, so it was wearer's whim. I'd expect better organization in the navy, but this WW1 type (note the FLAT "pin" and exterior hinge) ribbon bar could also date from the "anything goes" 1920s, as well. (As see the pair of ribbon bars below, to later Konteradmiral zS zV Kehrhahn-- wartime "German only" in naval style, and 1920s "anything goes" with the poor Ugly FAC at end as if it were as "foreign" as his pre-WW1 Swedish and Turkish Orders, improperly AFTER his XXV-- and he was still SERVING in the navy when he wore this!)

I find the poor old Oldenburg Friedrich August Cross 2nd Class often banished to last place on ribbon bars and groups-- apparently because the wearer thought the ugly, scruffy black painted things were just ICKY. So THIS ribbon bar could be a House Order (or Lifesaving Medal) in third place, and a FAC2 last...

no way to tell without a matching medal bar.

This is what often makes ribbon bar IDs a Royal when there is absolutely no question that the piece IS original-- but eludes identification!

[stevenn]

More questions?

No order of precence ?!? With that being the case, it could become a forgers paradise.Now, the backing material.Could it be possible that it is army as,if my memory is correct, Oldenburg was real big on darkish, blue uniforms?

[Rick Research]

That would be EXTREMELY unlikely, but not categorically impossible.

In the vast majority of cases, ARMY backing for Imperial ribbon bars is either red or field gray-- though Bavarian ones are often THEIR pale blue, or on silky backing.

NAVY backings are virtually always on dark blue, though I've found a few red, probably because that was the "generic" color most outfitters used.

Backings are always a major clue trying to pin down which service an Imperial ribbon bar came from.

This one I agree with Daniel MUST be navy, but somebody who has fallen through the cracks as a casualty or a pre-war retiree "invisible" on wartime Seniority Lists. Lots of variables. I'm not ruling out a "freak" army bar either. Not yet!

[stevenn]

navy and no arguments from me

Great info. I didn't know they were so particular.I've done BritishCommonwealth court mounting for years and it's basically a dark colour for backing with no real fuss over colour;red ,navy blue,black,dark green are the usual though.

[Rick Research]

They tended to be more finicky in the Imperial period. Third Reich... you find any sort of scrap material, often.

Still no luck, Daniel! I'm backtracking through the "dead before 1918."

But it is looking more an more like a Mutant ARMY bar as navy just comes up empty.

[Daniel Krause]

They tended to be more finicky in the Imperial period. Third Reich... you find any sort of scrap material, often.

Still no luck, Daniel! I'm backtracking through the "dead before 1918."

But it is looking more an more like a Mutant ARMY bar as navy just comes up empty.

If not Navy I see very low chances. If we have to look for a Army guy with just RAO4, DA, OV3a or b peacetime and a HOH3X......There should be dozends1
It would be soo nice if he is Navy..

Best regards

Daniel

[Rick Research]

I have found a pretty good ARMY candidate:

Bühl of Infantry Regiment 70 ("Chef" was the Grand Duke of Oldenburg, and Reichsheer officers from this regiment all got Friedrich August Crosses)--

SekLt 16.2.89
PremLt 1.9.96 F7f
Hauptmann 24.4.04 T
Major 1.10.13 T10t
Oberstleutnant aD

In Inf Regt 70 his entire career up to 1914--

Red Eagle 4 (check), XXV 1913/14 (check), 1897 (check), got the Oldenburg House Order OV3a gazetted 21.7.14 in MWB (check)

everybody got EK2 of course (check)

Bühl's HHOX was gazetted 9.1.17 as of an "I.R." (check)

I find no OTHER German awards to him (Baden, Bavaria, Saxony etc)

Inf Rgt 70/ 31 Inf Div served in Russia 1915 through 1917, so the ÖM3K is likely... and THAT makes this bar, 6 of 8 matched, the last 2 probable, no "extras."

The Honor Rank List shows him as Commander of 399th Inf Rgt, created in September 1916, in Garde Ersatz Inf Division (service in France and Russia, so still ÖM3K likely).

Wish I had a first name, but no such luck.

[Daniel Krause]

That is GREAT!
Many thanks!!!!!

I just started to that he is one of numberless un-ID-able Army Majors.

Best regards

Daniel