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    #1

    An 1866 (Im)possible combination?

    Dear Imperial collectors,

    I really need your help on this. I recently purchased a 2-piece medal bar with the 1866 Konigsgratz Cross as well as the Commemorative Centenary Medal. Is this combination possible? I always thought that to get the Centenary medal in 1897 you had to be still in service, and if so, shouldn't there also be a 1870 Franco-Prussian medal? Or was this given to retired personal (like a 1866 veteran who no longer served in 1870) as well?

    I usually collect awards from the 1914-1918 era, the 19th century awards and regulations are still a big mystery to me.

    Any help and / or explanation is much appreciated.
    Tags: None
    #2
    Hello Thorsten,

    I understand your doubt regarding this combination; but I do think that it is remotely possible.

    We would feel very comfortable if there was an 1870 medal in there. No question about it, but is it not possible that for some certainly remote reason that such a recipient could have somehow not qualified for an 1870 medal? Granted, it does seem like everybody did get one though.

    Surely, some more knowledgeable members can provide some answers to this one.

    Best wishes,

    Wild Card

    Comment

      #3
      I'd like to see some pics. Perhaps the bar's construction will help lead us to an answer.
      pseudo-expert

      Comment

        #4
        Thanks for your responses so far.

        @ Wild Card: I guess it is absolutely possible for someone to have "missed" the 1870 campaign, but not to have received a 1870 medal means that this person must have left the army altogether. The answer may lie in the regulations to the centenary medal...

        @ Don: The construction is very firm and the ribbons both a silky and firmly sewn in over a brass plate. Unfortunately, my wife is in Australia at the moment, and she took our camera (), so photos have to wait until next week.

        Comment

          #5
          The 1897 medal was given to any Prussian soldier who was in service in 1897 OR participated EITHER in 1870/71, OR in 1866, OR in 1864.

          The combination you mention is rarer than one with 18770 medal, but still nothing special.

          I have a portrait of a soldier who fought in 1864, missed 1866 and then again participated - mow as a non-combattant - in 1870/71.

          However, anyone who saw action and was still alive(!) in 1897 did qualify for the latter medal. That's one of the reasons it's that common.
          sigpic

          Visit www.woeschler-orden.de, updated each 1st and 15th a month!

          Comment

            #6
            Originally posted by Kaleun View Post
            Dear Imperial collectors,

            I really need your help on this. I recently purchased a 2-piece medal bar with the 1866 Konigsgratz Cross as well as the Commemorative Centenary Medal. Is this combination possible? I always thought that to get the Centenary medal in 1897 you had to be still in service, and if so, shouldn't there also be a 1870 Franco-Prussian medal? Or was this given to retired personal (like a 1866 veteran who no longer served in 1870) as well?

            I usually collect awards from the 1914-1918 era, the 19th century awards and regulations are still a big mystery to me.

            Any help and / or explanation is much appreciated.
            My great grandfather had this combination. So, entirely possible!

            In 1866;


            The Seven Weeks War
            1866 Rang- und Quartierliste;
            Seconde-Lieutenant von Klingspor
            9./2.Ostpreußisches Grenadier-Regiment Nr. 3.
            2nd Brigade, 1st Division
            1st Army Corps,
            2nd Army under Crown Prince Wilhelm



            Franco Prussian War
            9th Company
            Brandenburgisches Füsilier-Regiment Nr. 35
            11th Brigade
            6th Division
            III. Corps


            1889 Kommander Fortress Magdeburg

            Major General 14 Juli,1895
            Commander 19. Infanterie-Brigade, 10 Div.
            14 Jul 1895 - 19 Jul 1898

            Generalleutnant 16 Feb 1899
            Last edited by Brian S; 10-14-2009, 07:26 PM.

            Comment

              #7
              Thank you all for taking time to respond to my question!

              Comment

                #8
                Just to add, i thought the Centl. medal was given to any German states' citizen who served in 1870-71.
                It was classed as an imperial award and is specifically mentioned in Baden, Bavarian and Saxon award books.
                Last edited by McCulloh; 10-15-2009, 01:10 PM.

                Comment

                  #9
                  Hi McCulloh,

                  after some research around the forum my understanding now is that the Centenary Medal was principally a Prussian award. However, it was also bestowed on "foreign" soldiers (i.e. Baden, Bavarian, Saxon etc.) if they participated in one of the unification wars (1864, 1866 or 1870). In other words, a non-Prussian (like a Bavarian or Saxon etc.) serving in his King's army in 1897 without being a veteran of one of the wars would NOT get the Centenary.

                  Feel free to correct me here if I misunderstood the regulations. Always keen to learn!

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Kaleun View Post
                    Hi McCulloh,

                    after some research around the forum my understanding now is that the Centenary Medal was principally a Prussian award. However, it was also bestowed on "foreign" soldiers (i.e. Baden, Bavarian, Saxon etc.) if they participated in one of the unification wars (1864, 1866 or 1870). In other words, a non-Prussian (like a Bavarian or Saxon etc.) serving in his King's army in 1897 without being a veteran of one of the wars would NOT get the Centenary.

                    Feel free to correct me here if I misunderstood the regulations. Always keen to learn!
                    No, I don't think so... My great grandfather's son, newly minted into the 7th Cursassiers, had one and only one medal upon his early death, the Centennial Medal. Served in no wars or engagements of any kind.

                    Comment

                      #11
                      From this website: www.omsa.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=438

                      "Also called the “Zentenarmedaille” or “Apfelorden.”
                      Founded by Kaiser Wilhelm II on 22 March 1897 and given to all active duty troops, veterans of the unification wars, etc. in honor of the 100th birthday of his grandfather, Kaiser Wilhelm I. The medal, designed by Prof. Walter Schott and produced at L. Ostermann, Berlin, was made of captured cannons. Private purchase examples are common as well."

                      Ammersee

                      Comment

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Brian S View Post
                        No, I don't think so... My great grandfather's son, newly minted into the 7th Cursassiers, had one and only one medal upon his early death, the Centennial Medal. Served in no wars or engagements of any kind.
                        Brian, have you read the thread? Seems you didn't...

                        It was given to all serving Prussian soldiers in 1897, AND to all mentioned Vets. Your great grandfather was an active Prussian soldier in 1897, right?


                        In one point I'm not sure. A Badener or Saxon or Bavarian who fought in 1866 but not in 1870/71... he was an enemy back than, from Prussian view. Not sure if those got one, too. Likely they did!
                        sigpic

                        Visit www.woeschler-orden.de, updated each 1st and 15th a month!

                        Comment

                          #13
                          Originally posted by saschaw View Post
                          Brian, have you read the thread? Seems you didn't...

                          It was given to all serving Prussian soldiers in 1897, AND to all mentioned Vets. Your great grandfather was an active Prussian soldier in 1897, right?


                          In one point I'm not sure. A Badener or Saxon or Bavarian who fought in 1866 but not in 1870/71... he was an enemy back than, from Prussian view. Not sure if those got one, too. Likely they did!
                          My apologies, all credit to you for answering correctly first.

                          Comment

                            #14
                            Hi.
                            I was just catching up on my forum and found your question. I'd say "yes", it's possible. I have a similar group, but the award document for the Centennial medal is present. My guy is a Bavarian and received his for duty to the state as a tax assessor from 1849-> 1898 and still plugging away at the job after 50 ish years of service. It also says something ,I can't make out, that has something to do with patrolling a river. They didn't have manditory retirement ages back then. I think mine was a reservist; if he started work in 1849 and was in a war in 1864, that could put his age between 30 and 35 years old ( if was put to work between 15 and 20 years old and 15 was common in those days as it gave you a chance to apprentice your way through the profession). His document makes no mention of getting this for military service, but 50ish years state service. It's also possible that the document was for different family member. I still think it's possible if it's requirement is/was for 40(?) years of state service during that 100 years covered by the medal. Your bar sounds nice and possible,
                            Bye for a while and I don't know when I''ll get back to the forum.
                            Steven

                            Comment

                              #15
                              Hello there,

                              I finally got my digicam back, so please follow the link below to see some pictures of the medal bar in question:

                              http://tahcollection.blogspot.com/20...ratz-1866.html

                              I am certain the medals are original. However, I particularly invite comments regarding the back of the bar. Is it a genuine period one (after 1897/before 1900)?

                              Again thanks for your input.

                              Comment

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