Mapping out areas of Imperial Germany

[Sal Williams]

Hi Guys,
I'm back! I am still finding it hard to get a grip on Imperial. A suggestion was made that I should concentrate on an area (such as Prussia). Is there a map that could be posted as I don't really have a good vision in my head of what Imperial Germany looks like? How many different awards are we talking about approximatly? I looked on the main page but alas, no history of Imperial or much else I could find. I think I need a good book to explain just the layout and political situation of Imperial Germany to start with. Any suggestions? It's all just too murky to me. I bet this scares off other potential enthusiasts as well.

Thanks, Sal (the grasshopper)

[Glenn2438]

Map 1871-1918

Sal,

the map of German Reich from 1871-1918 with all its constituent states. Taken from Meyers Handatlas 1933. I have uploaded a larger version to here:

http://www.austro-hungarian-army.co....reich70-18.jpg

regards
Glenn

[W McSwiggan]

May I suggest Dave Danner's excellent site as a good starting point. You will find maps linking to the various sovereigns, history and award listings. Hopefully the following link will get you there.

http://home.att.net/~david.danner/militaria/states.htm

Good luck.

wem

[atcase]

Hi Sal,

If you can (provided it is still obtainable ??) get a copy of Medal Ribbons & Orders of Imperial Germany & Austria by D.G. Neville, though an old publication has some good pictorial references on awards of the german states (and Austria) includung thier ribbons and the contries history.

But after typing this i`ve just noticed my edition was printed in 1974 so a call to a few antique book shops may be needed, or specialist book dealers, one here in the U.K. is www.landmarkmilitarybooks.com

Best of luck.

Ashley

[Sal Williams]

Thanks Guys,
I forgot about Daves site which was recomended to me earlier. That helped a lot! How many Imperial awards are there (I mean Major or typical ones, not every obscure one) It must be a lot with all the kingdoms and Duchies etc. Are we looking in the many thousands?
Best, Sal

The red eagle ones are very nice. What general price range are we looking at for those (I'm sure I've way over simplified that). I'm becoming very intrigued by these Imperial awards!

[Daniel Krause]

You have to look for at least some hundred awards in the different states.
So it is necessary for a mortal one like us to concentrate on a state or a war or...

If You look for Red Eagles You can start with the simple 4th class for around 250-300 € and finish at a Grand Cross Collar for more than 20.000

Best regards

Daniel

[Gerd Becker]

Hi Sal, i give you an example of the complexity of ONE order:
The Red-Eagle-Order for example existed in 5 classes:
1. Grand Cross
a.Grand Cross with oakleafs, swords and swords on the ring
b.Grand Cross with oakleafs and swords
c.Grand Cross with oakleafs and swords on the ring
d.Grand Cross with swords
e.Grand Cross with oakleafs
2. First Class
a. FC with Oakleafs, and the enamel-tie of the crown-order with swords
b. FC with Oakleafs, swords and swords on the ring
c. FC with Oakleafs and swords
d. FC with swords
e. FC with Oakleafs and swords on the ring
d. FC with swords on the ring
f. FC with Oakleafs
3. Second Class
a. SC with Star, Oakleaf, swords and swords on the ring
b. SC with Star, Oakleaf and swords
c. SC with Star and swords
d. SC with Star, Oakleaf and swords on the ring
e. SC with Star and Oakleaf
f. SC with Star
g. SC with Oakleafs, swords and swords on the ring
h. SC with Oakleafs and swords
i. SC with swords
j. SC with Oakleafs and swords on the ring
k. SC with swords on the ring
l. SC with Oakleafs
4. Third Class
a. TC with bow and swords and swords on the ring
b. TC with bow and swords
c. TC with swords
d. TC with bow and swords on the ring
e. TC with swords on the ring
f. TC with bow
5. Fourth Class
with swords
And between there are many, many different "Kleindekorationen" and brilliant-decorations and crowns and jubilee-clasps...
Impossible to own one of every RAO-classes, but you can buy a nice 2nd class for 1200 Euro, a third for 700-800, a fourth class 250-300, like Daniel said and so on(all without swords or crowns). The more special versions as well as the swords-decorations are more expensive.
The RAO is maybe the most different order, a job for a lifetime. But it is also one of the nicest (IMO).
But there are other interesting states, like Saxon(ask Rick Versailles ) or Württemberg, Bayern, Waldeck and so on. Every state has its own desirable orders. Wonderful enameled pieces with history. The higher orders have a similar structure like the RAO, not so complicated maybe. I would assume, we are talking about 5000 different orders?

best wishes,
Gerd

[Sal Williams]

Thanks Gerd and Daniel!
WHEW!!! What a list Gerd. Of course I have to like the most complex and expensive order. Typical. I think I am going to look for examples of the list you posted in old threads Gerd. Then I'm going to post them here for others like me. The REO is Prussian correct?
Best, Sal

Oh is it RAO for rot adler order?

[Gerd Becker]

Yep. The REO is a prussian order. I am myself most interested in prussian orders. Most of my collection is prussian stuff. But the prussian orders are also good available at the market. 4th class REOs are quite common, 3rd classes are already rarer, not to speak from swords or crown-versions, but sometimes also available. You often get also so called "wearers copies", which are often not so good as issued pieces, but are also very nice. I remember seeing a nice 2nd class "wearers copy" for 1200 Euro.
Can someone confirm that?
best wishes,
Gerd

[Sal Williams]

When I look up REO in the search I get ribbon bars and medal bars for the most part. Did they always end up on bars? With the TR stuff you find the individual awards is it not like that with Imperial? I was hoping to compile a picture reference of all the ones on Gerds list. Am I going about this wrong?
Thanks, Sal

[Gerd Becker]

Hi Sal,
i have forgotten something important: The Grandcross and the 1st and 2nd class were neck-orders, the 3rd and 4th class were on a ribbon for the medal-bar, the star was worn on the left chest. To answer your question: They did not all end up in medal bars, but the most of them. Logical, as they were made for the medal bar. But you still find singles. A picture reference could be hard, i am working 3 years on that now. If you want, i can send you the pics, i have.
Try also RAO as a search. If you take a closer look on the ribbon-bar-threads, you can learn a lot from Rick Lundström, Rick Versailles, Daniel Krause and so on about rules and regulations regarding orders. Believe me, when you really chose the RAO, you will collect your whole life and still has not all possible combinations.
Medalbars and ribbonbars are a very interesting field, as often the owner is still traceable after 100 years or more!

HEHEHE, we have him, guys! HEHEHE

best wishes,
Gerd

[Dave Danner]

The approach I have tried to follow, and which I have recommended to others, is not to concentrate on a specific award or a specific state, but on a category of awards.

Collecting just one award, like the RAO, would get boring after a while, and you eventually realize that the collection will never be complete because there are too many higher awards out of most mere mortal price ranges.

Collecting one state can be satisfying, but unless you have a particular reason for connecting with that state, it seems kind of directionless. I have a thing for the Grand Duchy of Baden, but that's because my grandfather was born there.

A category, by contrast, allows you to collect different states, so you get some variety and a peek into each state's history in the process as you educate yourself. The question is, what category to choose. I and many others have chosen, or at least started with, the Iron Cross equivalents of the various states. This has three virtues: (1) the Iron Cross is an instantly recognizable centerpiece; (2) the state equivalents were relatively common (at least when compared to orders and the like) and are thus in many cases relatively easy to find and afford; and, most importantly for me, (3) they represent the common soldier, rather than princes, politicians, generals and civil servants.

You could choose other categories based on a particular interest. Commemoratives, campaign medals and long-service awards are three. I mentioned the awards of the common soldier because I was one; if you or a family member were a cop, fireman, postman, or the like, the awards typically given to civil servants or firemen might be of interest to you.

Just some thoughts,

Dave

[Sal Williams]

Thanks Dave and Gerd,
Gerd, I would love to see the photos you have collected. I will need to clean out my email. Give me a few days to do it as I am working like crazy this week.

Dave, your site helped out a lot although I am still bewildered by the complexity of Imperial. Let me see if I have this right: The EK is a Prussian award. The other states/kingdoms/duchies/independent cities have a version or equivilent of the EK? If so are the others based on the EK? Do they look like the EK at all or are they just equal in the sense of being a brevery award? How many other award types span across all the areas of Imperial Germany? Is it possible for you or anyone to post some pics of the different EK type awards? There I go again,...Sal the human question mark!

Gerd, you may be right, I'm getting hooked!

Best, Sal

[TerryG]

Imperial

Well Sal, I must admit to being in your club. I am getting more and more interested in Imperial stuff but it seems so complicated. As suggested above, I have started with EK's and related items and am slowly moving to other things, so far based on whether they would look good in my collection (Silesian eagles for ex). Wouldn't it be great if the specialist collectors on this forum got together and put their photos of WW1 awards and their experience in a book......Maybe experienced authors like Gordon Williamson would be able to assist those concerned? I would love to own a good and complete reference book, wouldn't you? As far as I know there is nothing like that currently on the market (if there is please correct me).

[Sal Williams]

Well Sal, I must admit to being in your club. I am getting more and more interested in Imperial stuff but it seems so complicated. As suggested above, I have started with EK's and related items and am slowly moving to other things, so far based on whether they would look good in my collection (Silesian eagles for ex). Wouldn't it be great if the specialist collectors on this forum got together and put their photos of WW1 awards and their experience in a book......Maybe experienced authors like Gordon Williamson would be able to assist those concerned? I would love to own a good and complete reference book, wouldn't you? As far as I know there is nothing like that currently on the market (if there is please correct me).

Terry,
That sounds GRAND! So,...uhhh,...what do you say Rick, Dave, Rick, and all,...hint hint.?
Best, Sal