Medal bar of a hessian officers

[Klaus O.]

Dear imperialoids,

I just wanted to help Rick (Lundström) for his research's efforts and everybody for the nice comments.

Thank you very much from the bottom of my heart. This medal bar will have a special place in my collection... I wouldn't have immagined that this bar could belong to a German baron...

Ciao,

Claudio

[JensF.]

I am really fascinated how fast some members here are able to identify someone by his medal-bar. I hope I will get such a medal-bar which is also possible to ID in the future. Claudio, have fun with this treasure!!!

[Klaus O.]

Yes Jens it really is fun to collect such beauties!

Rick, I have a couple of questions (Anfängerfragen...):

What does actually means "char" (charakterisierter sp?) Oberst? Before retiring was promoted to Oberst as honorary rank?

And the following abbreviations after the ranks?

Premierleutnant/Oberleutnant 10.9.98 J5i

Hauptmann 10.4.06 H

Major 18.10.12 Q

Oberstleutnant 27.1.18 Dd

Sorry about the many questions... I probably look like a "principiante"... but I am incredibly learning a lot on this forum!

Ciao,

Claudio

[Rick Research]

Success is often more like being struck by lightning than that "anyone" can be found. I have a PILE of my OWN ribbon bars where I am absolutely STUCK trying to find the owners!

"char." for "charakterisiert" means a rank given upon discharge that the officer never held while he was on duty-- a retirement "bump." Before 1914 it was often used for zD officers who were on "Twilight Zone" status as "semi-retired"-- on active duty (often for many, many years--none of which was counted for a long service cross) but never normally again eligible for promotion in some vital but dead end job, like a local Landwehrbezirk office.

Also, "vorp." for "vorpatentiert" applied usually only to Leutnants, who sometimes received a seniority date from BEFORE they actually joined as cadets, 2 years if Abitur holders, 1 year for other circumstances, etc.

Occasionally (usually at about Hauptmann level) an officer was "ern." for "ernannt." This was an ACTING promotion, without permanent rank seniority-- I have seen pre-war officers who held a rank for years get very poor recent seniority indeed even after all that "advance" time. Wartime Leutnants were usually "ern." with long delays (sometimes for years) before receiving final seniority assigments.

The mysterious numbers and letters after Prussian (particularly) rank dates are the seniority of officers with the same rank all promoted on the same date. If only one officer, there was nothing after the date at all. (Note: often I don't have the seniority suffixes for ranks before 1900, and they are omitted for that reason only. The Baron's SL date, for instance, is given from wartime Dienstalterslisten, which do not show any Lt suffixes. I don't even know why they cross-referenced them at all, but I'm grateful anyway!) Then with the letters that were skipped all officers of a rank would go through A-Z, then Aa-Zz until finally you find suffixes during the war that are like M34m for herds of junior officers.

[WNickel]

Hi Mike,


four bars for southwest aren't untypical. But the bars are four different types - I have never seen this before. The KDM 1870/71 is naturally wrong.

Werner

[Mike Downey]

Thanks Werner
I can see I will have to start looking at the little details with a more critical eye.Why is the KDM 70/71 wrong? I also note the Imperial fashion of putting the battle bars on the next convenient ribbon alond from the award they should be on...
Thanks for your input.
Kind Regards
Mike Downey

Hi Mike,


four bars for southwest aren't untypical. But the bars are four different types - I have never seen this before. The KDM 1870/71 is naturally wrong.

Werner

[Blitz]

Lovely bar, Claudio and Great job Rick!

[Horseguardsman]

I just wanted to tell you that Heinrich v W is my Great Great Grandfather. It was a real pleasure to see these medals. I just joined this forum and you guys have made my day.

Do you know about his grandfather LGen v Weitershausen?

thanks

Zane
Capt_Kabul@canada.com

Well, The Triumvirate is in agreement . As I had PM'd Claudio-- Guru, Reeky, and also I see above, Werner, all concur that


in the end, there can be only one:


Heinrich Freiherr von Weitershausen,

born circa 1870

Sekondeleutnant 20.9.90 (probably direct commission from Cadet School)
Premierleutnant/Oberleutnant 10.9.98 J5i
Hauptmann 10.4.06 H
Major 18.10.12 Q
Oberstleutnant 27.1.18 Dd
char. Oberst aD

alive 1926

He was always a field artillery officer in Hessian XVIIIth Army Corps: in FAR 27 1902 and FAR 61 1907, for example.

He then went to the Field Artillery Section (Department "A4") of the Prussian War Ministry, where he was when the war began.

The Honor Rank List shows him last as Commander of Artillery Command 97-- wherever that was!

Bavarian MVO4XmKr as initial award (typical for Majors) 20.9.15*

Prussian HHOX gazetted in the Militär-Wochenblatt issue of 13.7.18 (so bar dates from roughly then)

Neither my guru nor I can find any other holder of a Hessian Philip-Red Eagle 4 with Crown PAIR (no other pre-war Orders) who got BMVO4XwC and HHOX.

*BUT... there is ONE anomoly, which is what had me uncertain: the Autengruber published MWB rolls of awards gazetted after the 1914 Rank List shows Baron Weitershausen with a Bavarian MVO4mKr gazetted 31.10.14...

Bavaria did not normally require that a Same Grade peace decoration be returned when the War version was awarded. So where is it?

1) There is a published Rolls typo, and "20.9.15" (actual Bavarian award date) and "31.10.14" (MWB gazette dates are always delayed, by weeks or months) were the same year (either 1914 or 1915) in BOTH cases, or

2) Because his peacetime MVO only came through processing after the war began, it was decided that he should really "only" have the one with swords, or

3) He just decided not to wear the Bavarian "no swords" award.


That last seems to me, even without knowing of ANY Bavarian precedent for 2), to be less likely than 1) or 2).

Like my Baron Inn ribbon bar, matches on 9 of 10 points, there are too many matches here for this modern listing to disqualify him.

Whatever happened, the three of us are confident it could ONLY have been Baron W.

[landsknechte]

I am not out to snapping bars....do you hear the results of the Thies auction????? Collectors are crazy.... An ugly 70/71 bar - not very nice for 6500,- EUR, an bar with the china and southwest medal and a little bit questionable for 8500,- go to America.... That's nothing for me.

Looks like I'll be remaining in the nice, relatively inexpensive, ribbon bar camp for the forseeable future.

--Chris