Medal bar of a hessian officers

[Klaus O.]

Dear Imperialoids,

I was fortunate enough to purchase this beautiful medal bar which is composed of the following medals:

Eisernes Kreuz 2. Klasse (OEK 1909)
Preussen, Hausorden von Hohenzollern, Kreuz der Ritter mit Schwertern (OEK 1789)
Hessen, Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen „Für Tapferkeit“ (OEK 884)
Bayern, BMVO 4. Kl. mit Krone und Schwertern (OEK 412)
Hessen, Orden des Philipps des Großmütigen, RK 1. Kl. (OEK 828)
Preussen, Roter Adler Orden, 4. Klasse mit Krone (OEK 1706)
Preussen, Centenarmedaille 1897 (OEK 1965/1)
Österreich, Militärverdienstkreuz 3. Klasse

I am not complete sure about the class of the 5th order (Philipps des Grossmütigen), but I think it is a 1st class (Ritterkreuz), since the center of the medaillion is made of gold. Furthermore its arms seems to in silver with almost completely worn off gold gilting. Any comments about that?

I would be grateful to anyone you could help in research the name of the wearer of such a medal, which was worn at the end of WWI or in the early twenties (notice the absence of a Prussion long service award or any post war commemorative medals).

Enjoy the pictures...

Ciao,

Claudio

[Klaus O.]

1st detail of the medal bar from left to right...

[Klaus O.]

2nd detail... medals in the center of this bar.

[Klaus O.]

3rd detail, medals of the far right...

[JensF.]

Da geht mir die Hose auf und wieder zu! No words!!!

[Rick Research]

He was definitely:

an army Major during the war,

a Hessian "national,"

and this was worn DURING the war:

because of the Red Eagle with Crown, absence of a long service cross (suspended 1914-1919), and the Bavarian MMO4XwC-- a usual "first award" for Majors.

I've been through the 1914 already looking for the CROWN to the REO as the most likely to have turned up the owner. No luck-- so I suspect that it was a 1914 bestowal after the Rangliste came out, that did not make the Militär-Wochenblatt lists either.

A problem is that NEITHER the HHOX nor the Bavarian MMOX+ rolls are actually complete. He's GOT to be in there, but being able to find him is NOT going to be easy.

[Rick Research]

Houston: We HAVE a suspect.

Just had to go ask for confirmation from my Imperial guru, because I am only the Sorcerer's Apprentice. If that Bad Werner was around (doesn't it make you... twitchy... when he's not around? He MUST be skulking out there, snapping up medal bars AGAIN! )

Am awaiting confirmation (artillery Baron) or alternates.

Pre 1897? Check.

Red Eagle with Crown 4? Check

Philip-Knight 1st? Check.

Hessian national? Check.

BMVO4XmKr? Check.

HHOX? Check.

But had ANOTHER dingus which makes me wonder-- though THAT might be a typo on the published rolls.

Stay tuned.

[Daniel Krause]

Thats a pretty nice one!
Congratulations!!!

Best regards

Daniel

[WNickel]

Hi Rick,

I am not out to snapping bars....do you hear the results of the Thies auction????? Collectors are crazy.... An ugly 70/71 bar - not very nice for 6500,- EUR, an bar with the china and southwest medal and a little bit questionable for 8500,- go to America.... That's nothing for me.

The hessian bar looks like the bar of Heinrich .....W Major in the Kriegsministerium. He earned the BMVO 4. class with swords and crown and the HvH. 1914 he has got the RAO 4 with crown and the Philippsorder 1. class and no long service cross in this time...

Werner

[Klaus O.]

Werner,

Great! Thanks... It looks like we found the medal bar's owner... That is soooo cool!

About Thies: I did bid on some items, but I wasn't crazy to overbid... I actually never do it. That's why I very rarely get to buy something from auction's houses. Do you have the results of the auction? Can I send you my list and see if I got something? I can't wait until Friday...

Ciao,

Claudio

Hi Rick,

I am not out to snapping bars....do you hear the results of the Thies auction????? Collectors are crazy.... An ugly 70/71 bar - not very nice for 6500,- EUR, an bar with the china and southwest medal and a little bit questionable for 8500,- go to America.... That's nothing for me.

The hessian bar looks like the bar of Heinrich .....W Major in the Kriegsministerium. He earned the BMVO 4. class with swords and crown and the HvH. 1914 he has got the RAO 4 with crown and the Philippsorder 1. class and no long service cross in this time...

Werner

[WNickel]

Hi Claudio,

do you know the wearer????? so i had not to search....

I haven't the results from Thies but I bit on an lot and I heard the results by telephone....

Werner

[Rick Research]

Well, The Triumvirate is in agreement . As I had PM'd Claudio-- Guru, Reeky, and also I see above, Werner, all concur that


in the end, there can be only one:


Heinrich Freiherr von Weitershausen,

born circa 1870

Sekondeleutnant 20.9.90 (probably direct commission from Cadet School)
Premierleutnant/Oberleutnant 10.9.98 J5i
Hauptmann 10.4.06 H
Major 18.10.12 Q
Oberstleutnant 27.1.18 Dd
char. Oberst aD

alive 1926

He was always a field artillery officer in Hessian XVIIIth Army Corps: in FAR 27 1902 and FAR 61 1907, for example.

He then went to the Field Artillery Section (Department "A4") of the Prussian War Ministry, where he was when the war began.

The Honor Rank List shows him last as Commander of Artillery Command 97-- wherever that was!

Bavarian MVO4XmKr as initial award (typical for Majors) 20.9.15*

Prussian HHOX gazetted in the Militär-Wochenblatt issue of 13.7.18 (so bar dates from roughly then)

Neither my guru nor I can find any other holder of a Hessian Philip-Red Eagle 4 with Crown PAIR (no other pre-war Orders) who got BMVO4XwC and HHOX.

*BUT... there is ONE anomoly, which is what had me uncertain: the Autengruber published MWB rolls of awards gazetted after the 1914 Rank List shows Baron Weitershausen with a Bavarian MVO4mKr gazetted 31.10.14...

Bavaria did not normally require that a Same Grade peace decoration be returned when the War version was awarded. So where is it?

1) There is a published Rolls typo, and "20.9.15" (actual Bavarian award date) and "31.10.14" (MWB gazette dates are always delayed, by weeks or months) were the same year (either 1914 or 1915) in BOTH cases, or

2) Because his peacetime MVO only came through processing after the war began, it was decided that he should really "only" have the one with swords, or

3) He just decided not to wear the Bavarian "no swords" award.


That last seems to me, even without knowing of ANY Bavarian precedent for 2), to be less likely than 1) or 2).

Like my Baron Inn ribbon bar, matches on 9 of 10 points, there are too many matches here for this modern listing to disqualify him.

Whatever happened, the three of us are confident it could ONLY have been Baron W.

[Mike Downey]

medal bar of a hessian officer

Werner
I presume that the 8500 eu medal bar was lot 691? I am new to the Imperial medals but have had plenty of experience with the British medal auctions.Silly me looked at 691 (estimate 2000 eu) and thought ...gee that looks nice...four campaigns etc etc...so I leap in the deep end and bid 3000 eu.Oh well I guess the estimate was a bit out...but 4 times???(Why do you think it was possibly not right?)
However I then get my pocket Gem German/English mini dictionary out and discover that the Russian medal is numbered and the certificate with it has the same number.This I presume will help the new owner identify the recipient...if he hasn't rung Rick L allready...from Russia...
All is not lost.I also bid on two unimportant groups ... lots 606 and 697.Estimate for 606 was 600 eu...I got it for 600 eu and 697 was also 600 eu...I got it for 700 eu.I guess every one else also thought they were unimportant...but in this neck of the woods it is impossible to get this type of material and unless you actually handle some of it you can't really learn about it.Kind Regards
Mike Downey (Australia)

Hi Rick,

I am not out to snapping bars....do you hear the results of the Thies auction????? Collectors are crazy.... An ugly 70/71 bar - not very nice for 6500,- EUR, an bar with the china and southwest medal and a little bit questionable for 8500,- go to America.... That's nothing for me.

The hessian bar looks like the bar of Heinrich .....W Major in the Kriegsministerium. He earned the BMVO 4. class with swords and crown and the HvH. 1914 he has got the RAO 4 with crown and the Philippsorder 1. class and no long service cross in this time...

Werner

[Glenn2438]

Oberst

A couple more details regarding Oberst Heinrich Freiherr von Weitershausen. He was born on 21 Apr 1869 and died 4 Feb 1928.

He commanded Kurmärkisches Feldartillerie-Regiment Nr. 39 from 22 Nov 1917 and was appointed Artillerie-Kommandeur 97 on 15 Apr 1918 - Jan 1919. ARKO 97 was subordinate to 9. Reserve-Division.

Regards
Glenn

[Tony & Kaiser]

do you hear the results of the Thies auction????? Collectors are crazy
Werner

Yes, we are. Werner, Where did you get the Thies results from? I cannot find them on his web site. I am trying to find out what lots 885 887, 888, and 891 went for. Danke, Tony