Naval Airship Badges

[Brian S]

Gary, what about these two badges suggest they are designed by the same maker? I ask respectfully because I am unable to make it a logical leap that they were made by the same designer.

[Bobby lee]

Hi Gary, You are using a "T" test on Schot badges? Where did that come from? Based on what? Surely you don't suggest we use a badge on ebay as a benchmark. What makes it any more original than the items from Latvia? As I said assuming is what we have, not hard data.

Hi Brian. You asked about benchmarks, which ones do we use, established by whom? Based on what hard data? Lets use my benchmarks! Why are you comparing a sub badge with a zep badge? Do you really believe only one mark die was used in the factory? That someone ran from one table to the next using "THE' die stamp?
Come on guys, I colud care less if anyone likes my zep badge. At least I am willing to display mine. If you look at the firms that were around for long periods of time there were changes made in logos and marks. Die makers come and go as well. All I suggest is that we not create a false impression based on non-documented benchmarks. Opinions are fine, we are all entitled to them - lets just call them that and not bencmarks. Got hard data? I'm all ears!

[Brian S]

I have really nothing to say other than compare the two badges. Crown, wreath overall style is entirely different. I am NOT suggesting you look at the maker mark. Yes, more than one maker mark device could be employed. But, for my eyes, I'm seeing no comparison and overall style on the obverse and the pin/catch is different also.

I'm using my sub badge to compare because it is a legitimate Schot item. That's a benchmark. Look at Juncker flight badges, they share stylistic similarities.

I'm not saying your badge is fake, I don't know. But I personally do not think it is a Walter Schot designed or produced badge based on

1) Style wreath/crown
2) Maker mark
3) Pin/catch

But I don't know any more than that

I await more provenance/proof so I will know what is or is not the right zep badge. Until then, I remain unconvinced with this one.

[Bobby lee]

Hey Brian, My zep badge crown design makes me wonder about your sub badge! You see, who made your badge a "benchmark" and not mine? We both could have good badges or both bad badges if you cimpare to someone else's badge but whose? Actually, I think your weakness in logic is that you assume that two different badges would be designed the same way. Use of style, time of design, artist, just to name a few variables, impact final appearence.

[Brian S]

Hey Brian, My zep badge crown design makes me wonder about your sub badge! You see, who made your badge a "benchmark" and not mine? We both could have good badges or both bad badges if you cimpare to someone else's badge but whose? Actually, I think your weakness in logic is that you assume that two different badges would be designed the same way. Use of style, time of design, artist, just to name a few variables, impact final appearence.

Anything is possible, not probable, but possible. I will work with a few people I know to try to find a Schot zep badge and see what I can dig up.

Cheers.

[Tim Tezer]

Dear Bobby Lee,

As an aside I had written a few thoughts ref the crown/moon stampings in an earleir portion of this thread. One of the things I asked was if anyone had seen a C. E. Junker Tank badge (which we know is post WWI due to its institution date) and viewed the markings on it. A dealer has one for sale on the internet now with the Crown/moon 800 hallmark. So, assuming the badge is real, we do know that the crown moon 800 was used POST war. Same thing as with the Junker gunner badges. But thats all we can state based off that piece.

Gary B

Although I hardly want or need to reignite the "Crown vs. No Crown" debate, I think I know which tank badge you're referring to. With all due respect to the dealer, I wouldn't buy that badge. It may come with a lifetime guarantee, but as Bobby Lee points out, each collectors' comfort level with the item is one of the most important factors in determining whether to buy it or not. I wouldn't be comfortable with that tank badge, as it matches in numerous details a long line of pilot badges that I am fairly certain are fakes.

Tim

[Tony & Kaiser]

I will work with a few people I know to try to find a Schot zep badge and see what I can dig up.

Hey! Lets contact "the82nd" on ebay. He must have one somewhere in his crate of Zep badges? I'm sure he could produce a "Walter Juncker" marked example with some warning.

[Brian S]

Perhaps, perhaps...


But, here's his airship and the Schot looks much more like I would expect. Not a die flaw...

I don't know what's what on these but here's another Schot.

Hinge looks NOT like my sub badge.

[Brian S]

here's the front, I've asked him for better photos so I may switch these out when he comes through

[Brian S]

here's a better closeup

this MM is NOT like the one on my sub badge!

[mravery]

My two cents

Hello All,

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o></o>

I’ll be the first to admit that I’m not a badge collector but rather a uniform guy… and I only pick up badges to display on the tunics… But….. (don’t you just love ‘buts’)….. I have collected this stuff for a while so I have a good feeling about things……. The badge that Brain S. has posted appears to have been cast and not die stamped IMO… If you look at the pic I have attached I have circled the ‘pits’ that are left over from the cast process… … If you look at the badge that Bobby-Lee has posted there are no cast flaws as it appears to be die stamped….. Also.. if you look at the other badges that Rick has posted.. again.. there are no casting flaws… just scratches ……..I’m also not to crazy about the size of the catch on Brain S’s example.. looks to be too big and stick out way to far (could be the angle of the camera though)……

<o></o>

If I had a choice to pick one….. I would feel more comfortable with the one from BL than the one Brian has posted…….

<o></o>

For what it’s worth.. there are my 2 cents…..

<o></o>

Cheers

Mark

[Brian S]

Yeow, Mark, don't call them Brian's badges

[mravery]

Hey Brian,


Sorry... I didn't mean to imply that it was yours..... I was just trying to refer to each one .........

Cheers
Mark

PS.. The general's tunic should be here next week..... I'll get some pics taken when it shows.....

[Tim Tezer]

I hate to be argumentative (do I, reallyl? ), but I'm going to disagree with Mark's two cents. Brian is right about the die flaw showing up consistently in known original Walter Schot marked U-boat badges. What's more, I don't think the badge he is showing us is cast, as the edges just look too crisp not to be die struck.

Not that that means anything....

A fake die-struck U-boat turned up on the market a few years ago nonsensically marked "Walter Schot foc", which was supposed to say "fec", Latin for "fecit" meaning "made it." The "foc" badges were quickly replaced by badges that were exactly the same but marked "fec". They have different die characteristics than original Walter Schot badges, and therefore it seems highly probable that they are fake. But their hallmark looks almost exactly like the original die-flawed Walter Schot hallmark.

Below is a close-up of the hallmark of one of these FAKE Walter Schot badges:



This mark is different than the one on the bage Brian posted, if you look very closely at the bottom of the S or the extent to which the T is extended to the left.

So I'm going to say that the badge Brian posted is a good Schot marked zep badge, as far as I can tell. Schot U-boat badges turn up with a variety of pin and clasp combinations, so I'm not sure that matters. As for the first Schot zep badge shown, I'm not sure what to make of it.

Tim

[Bobby lee]

Hi Tim, with all due respect, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, as noted before, but what is your data to support your observation of which badge is correct? Where did you get the information on T's or for that matter anything else stamped on these badges? All I see is opinions, not hard facts. All I am saying is that responsible collectors who are interested in facts and reliability ought to take care who or what they support without evidence. I have seen too many mistakes over the past 30 years because someone says aomething and it becomes conventional wisdom, it becomes true without the rigerous review that professioal researchers use. To use examples from unknown sources or heavens protect us, Ebay fakes, is not reliable, hence opinion and that is what we call it.