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**stogieman** · 03-22-2002, 09:40 PM

The order?

Hi Daniel, is that a 1939 EK2 ribbon way down the end, after the Honor Cross? I would think that to be misplaced and cause for concern. BUT, I saw a medal bar on Detlev's site today, with the WW2 Decorations placed at the end, in what was a definate wrong order. So, I too am curious. Has anyone seen this before?

**Daniel Krause** · 03-23-2002, 03:21 AM

Hi Stogieman,

it is the prussian Red Cross Decoration. see the red stripe outside following to the black one.

Best greetings

Daniel

**stogieman** · 03-23-2002, 07:14 AM

whoops!

Hi Daniel, missed it, I should not stare at the screen so late at night. I did see a bar on Detlev's site with the ww2 at the end though, did you see the one I am talking about? It's a six-place bar, it has a KVK2 w.Swords and KVM placed at the end, after all the Imperial awards and an Honor Cross. Very Bizarre! It has been a while, I trust you are well, and not working too hard all week! You have my eMail, good to hear from you.

**Rick Research** · 03-23-2002, 09:35 AM

Unfortunately I see the same problems here as with the Luftwaffe bar over on the main Forum: the original tall crossed swords seem to be exactly the same very distinctive style as on that one, and the hook catch on back appears to be exactly the same also--suggesting these two bars came from the same hand. Kind of a maker's "fingerprint" like the ubiquitous Ohio "all brass" mass producer, only you've got a more skilled German craftsman.

The 8th ribbon--WWI Honor Cross, is quite peculiar with NO swords on it when the rest of the bar is festooned with cutlery. A Prussian Red Cross Medal is a very odd thing to find to someone with a Prussian Hohenzollern House Order with Swords. The 6th ribbon, since it has crossed swords, cannot be an Oldenburg Friedrich August Cross, but with swords has to be the Oldenburg House Order--and silver swords would be proper only for the lowest grade, as won by a Lieutenant--not somebody with pre-1897 seniority in WWI. If it was a single award from the Boxer Rebellion to an Oldenburg native--where is his WWI Friedrich August Cross?

7th ribbon for a WWI Bavarian Military Merit Order 4th Class is possible--the Oldenburg Zähringen Lion in 5th place could be Knight 2nd (Captains) or Knight 1st (Lieutenant Colonels) with the Oakleaves. A peacetime Red Eagle Order though would suggest a wartime Major... possibly an early promotion and awards overlapping from Captain/Major. But no one serving in 1897 with these sorts of awards was still an Oberleutnant in 1914 for a theoretical Knight 2nd Class Oldenburg House Order--after getting a peacetime Red Eagle Order that could only be received by a Captain or Major. Could not happen.

Also-- the peacetime Red Eagle in front of all that wartime stuff, while common Imperial and Weimar mounting, should NOT have been found that way in the Third Reich, with a Hindenburg Cross group from the mid-1930s. If a "super Prussian" WAS going to wear all his home state awards first--as some did through the 1920s--then the Red Cross, Long Service, China, and 1897 would ALSO be ahead of all the non-Prussian WWI awards. There is no consistency to this mounting--something that would have been "normal" in the "anything goes" Weimar period, but NOT 1934+.

The error with the Oldenburg ribbon, unlikelihood of a HHOX with a Red Cross Medal, and strange swordless Hindenburg Cross concern me. The same construction (catch, non standard backings), unusual pattern sword devices, and peculiar combination of awards as the other questionable ribbon bar raise warning flags to me that two "completely different times and wearers" incorrect bars were made... by the same hand out of parts--at the same time?

Unfortunately, as with every single other aspect of German militaria collecting, it has gotten to the point where paranoia has ceased to be a "problem" and is actually the "solution" to being faced with torrents and Biblical floods of fakes destroying our hobby. I've got fakes--we've all got fakes. I have seen fake TWO ribbon bars made using all original parts, selling for five bucks.

NOTHING can possibly substitute for an in-the-hand inspection, of course, and any comments I make are based solely on what is visible from any given scan. While never going to give up and go collect something else, things are now at a stage where I will pass on anything--which may even be good--that raises more questions than I can explain.

Having been focussed on ribbon bars for some 35 years, I have been at this for longer than the actual period German 1914-45 ribbon bars were worn! This means I am actually "over"-informed, and the array of original period mistakes that were made during the period ("Ugly" bars on my "Good, Bad, and Ugly" scale) are more obvious to me than they were to hourly help at an outfitters shop in 1917 or 1943. As a result, I am probably overly "picky" about the theoretical exactness of then existing rules and regulations. But when something just "doesn't look right" it bothers me.

I've handled thousands of ribbon bars and owned hundreds. Long, long decades poring over Ranglisten and so on has left me with what may appear to be "magical" instincts about what is or isn't possible. It is more simply statistical familiarity from long experience. Things like-- out of every peacetime 1914 Major in the entire Prussian army, I have found 3, maybe 4, who did NOT have a Red Eagle Order 4th Class. therefore, it is entirely possible to "generalize" that "every Major in the Prussian army had a REO 4th Class." Less than one handful, out of thousands, did not.

This is the sort of background I bring to viewing ribbon bars. It isn't just "opinion," and it certainly isn't "ego" or desire to make anybody feel bad. I've just had my nose to the ribbon bar grindstone three times longer than the Thousand Year Reich lasted!

**Daniel Krause** · 03-23-2002, 02:31 PM

Hi Rick, (both of You)

for that kind of discussion I like this forum.

Rick, you are in some points completely right. The needle system really is nearly the same. But the swords are much more thick than from the other bar we discussed yesterday and the ribbon material is completely different.

With this bar I have still a good feeling, because "the touch is o.k.", the kind of sewing is perfect, different to the other bar. My solution if this is a real one, a veteran of 1870/71, retired after boxer rebellion and recalled in WW1, there were lot of them, from simple sergeants to field marshals.

What do You think? Possible?

I miss 20 years of Your expertise for myself, started with ribbon bars "only" 15 years ago, I see it is never to late to learn more.

Best greetings

Daniel

**Rick Research** · 03-23-2002, 06:32 PM

No, an 1870 veteran is not possible. Even if a young one who got the campaign medal but no 1870 decorations, that Red Eagle would make him at least a retired Major, and 62 in 1914!

Many retreads did serve, but almost always in a rear area unexciting positions. I know of exactly ONE 1870 veteran who got a WWI Hohenzollern House Order-3rd X-- as a Landsturm regiment commander. He was an Oberst. While the Baden award "might" go with an Oberstleutnant, aside from the unlikelihood of so many combat awards to a 70 year old Landsturm officer, then the silver swords on the Bavarian Order conflict-- 4th Class could only be awarded up to Major.

I really can't see a 65 year old Major aD piling on awards and then getting promoted to Oberstleutnant aD and getting MORE frontline awards.

Not being able to put a name on a recipient doesn't bother me in this case (Mike, your Baden MKFVO 6 ribbon bar is STILL driving me insane not being able to ID him!), the sheer unlikelihood of the awards combination does it. That's the problem with parts bars, every piece of which may be original, but still not real.

My first all imperial fake ribbon bar--the one that finally made the lightbulb dawn about Mister All Brass From Ohio in 1990--was like this. The combination was... well, that'll be in The Article!

**Daniel Krause** · 03-24-2002, 08:43 AM

Hi Rick,

thank You again very much for sharing Your knowledge.

I should start to be not so happy with that bar.moremad

But don´t think I´m only full with fakes. What about this one? I like it because of the nice attachements. The Hohenzollern House Order lost its crown and swords and the nowadays swords are unprofessional attached, but I leave it like it is. unfortunately no backside scan, it has red wool.

Best greetings

Daniel

**Rick Research** · 03-24-2002, 03:02 PM

Daniel-- looks like you and I have the same officer's ribbon bars only mine was earlier than yours!!!!

The combination of awards should be unique, but whoever he was, I cannot find any trace of him after World War One. The wreath on the Austro-Hungarian ribbon was unique (and totally inaccurate, BTW!) to Godet of Berlin.

Here is my bar, which I just got a while back from Stogie-Rick, my first with the Turkish sabers alone. (I am still looking for a Crescent on the TWM and drool at the sight of that ribboned Bulgarian crown device):

**Rick Research** · 03-24-2002, 03:07 PM

Prussia, (Württemberg), Mecklenburg, Hesse, Austria-Hungary, (Bulgaria), Turkey... no naval officer had this combination. Only some sort of Army General Staff type could have had it...

Such a strange combination, Daniel, that we MUST have the same man's bars, mine maybe 1917, yours 1918.

Maybe nobody else will share our excitement--these are, after all, rather dirty, dingy poor old things. Mine has the sabers sewn on after its prongs broke. Rick

"It's a Small World, After All..."

**Daniel Krause** · 03-28-2002, 02:49 PM

Hi Rick,

thats a surprise,
we HAVE the SAME mans bar. Stogie Rick got the bar from my collection some time ago.

Best Greetings

Daniel

**Rick Research** · 03-28-2002, 03:14 PM

And, helping to make me insane, although there were only 235 Knight and Knight with Lions awards of the Württemberg Crown Order with Swords in WWI, Neal O'Connor could NOT find its Order Roll in Stuttgart-- it must be so small that it is misfiled. (Maybe in with tax reports for 1884 or something....)

Aaaagghh!

All I CAN say is: not navy, not aviation. Not a native Württemberger. I am sure this man was a staff MAJOR, but he did not go into the Reichsheer.

So close... so close... and still no name!

**Daniel Krause** · 03-28-2002, 03:58 PM

Hi Rick,

there is everytime a little bit of hope.
I spoke with Michael Autengruber this week. He will continue his work also with the Württemberg rolls, but it will cost some time.

Best Greetings

Daniel

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