Big and rare medal group of a brave Wuerttemberger

[JensF.]

Hi,

now a big one:

This is the (nearly) complete medal group of Leutnant Goetz from Wuerttemberg who was a Feldwebel in WWI and a Leutnant, maybe "der Reserve", in the Wehrmacht.

The big medal-bar consists of:

-EKII 1914 (no maker mark)
-Wuerttemberg: Verdienstkreuz mit Schwertern 1915 (very rare -
just 2285 awards!)
-Wuerttemberg: Silberne Militaerverdienstmedaille
-Hindenburg-cross
-Wuerttemberg: Long Service Medal for 12 years

Plus the ribbon-bar with devices, the Long Service Medal for 9 years and three pictures.
Who can tell me more about his rank and unit? Rick, any chance to identify more?

If you look at the back his medal-bar, you can see that he has attached the Verdienstkreuz and the Hindenburg-cross on a former three-medal-bar by sewing them between the other medals.

He never got an EKI and the black wound-badge is missing.

Best regards










Here he has got the ribbons of the EKII and the Militaerverdienstmedaille in his buttonhole. Is his rank Feldwebel?




Here he has got the marksmanship-lanyard (Schuetzenschnur). I think he is a Unteroffizier in this piture.




As Leutnant der Wehrmacht he has got some interesting devices on his epaulets (no stars!).

[Glenn2438]

Goetz

He looks like he holds the rank of Unterzahlmeister in the first photograph. Note the tresse round his shoulder straps but the lack of collar tresse. This would seem likely as he is pictured as a Wehrmachtbeamte or military official in the photograph with his wife. The white piping on the outer edges of his collar patches identify him as a paymaster. Probably holds the rank of Oberzahlmeister.

Glenn

[Rick Research]

He appears to have gone from NCO in infantry or something into what I would guess was the supply corps--Proviantämter had tunics/insignia like the first one--yellow and blue piping.

He appears to be a "Hauptmann" level Wehrmacht officer, but the central device on his boards doesn't look big enough to be the "HV" device... he was certainly not a career civil servant or military official because he has NO Third Reich long service award(s) in the last photo.

As a WW1 NCO/Warrant officer there is no chance to trace him unless a Merit Cross roll showing actual rank/unit turns up. As a "war's duration retread" for WW2, there is also no place to look for him: no "paper trail" since he did not have a continuous career. Rick

[JensF.]

Hi and thanks!

So he was a Unterzahlmeister in WWI and a Oberzahlmeister in WWII? Why did he get these gallantry awards? I am sure a Zahlmeister didn't saw much action.

Best regards

[Rick Research]

Jens--no, he was definitely NOT a Paymaster in WWI--they had white piping on tunics and caps. Yours show, I am fairly certain, the yellow on some parts and blue on others of the Quartermaster Corps (Proviantämter) branch. I believe he was a Proviantamtmeister.

The Merit Cross with Swords was not necessarily a bravery award--it was for war merit, to this strange hybrid category of Senior NCO/Warrant Officer who were too senior for some awards and not senior enough for everything else. The Merit Cross with Swords is rare not because it was a "high" award, but because there were so few soldiers in the strange category eligible for it. The silver bravery medal could have been earned earlier while still a combatant barnch NCO... or yes, perhaps for delivering stale bread to the frontline troops:

"Support" personnel were under fire and just as much danger as troops in the trenches, sometimes. Cooks got blown up by shellfire too.

Even if he was a Paymaster (and that Wehrmacht piping could be something pale colored that would be for something else), they still sometimes served at the front. Every regiment had a commissioned Paymaster, and most battalions did too. Your man was probably too old for frontline action in WW2 though.

[JensF.]

Maybe he was a member of the reserve because of a re-activation in WWII and no real promotion? If he is a Oberzahlmeister in the picture with his wife, what could be his equivalent military rank? Hauptmann or Oberleutnant?

Many thanks Rick!!!

[Glenn2438]

Hi Rick and Jens,

To be perfectly honest I think he could be either! Checking in "Die felgraue Uniformierung des deutschen Heeres 1907-1918" it gives the details as follows for both Unterzahlmeister and Proviantamts-Unterinspektor as follows:

1915:

Cap with corn-flower blue band with white piping on the crown and edges of the cap band.

Now although he is wearing an early (Felduniform M1913) pattern tunic with piping this could be either white in the case of the Unter-Zahlmeister or Citrus Yellow in the case of the Proviantamts-Unterinspektor. Again the shoulder straps as per the 1915 regulations would be white or yellow depending on his branch.

Both of branches actively recruited from the ranks of active NCOs so it would have been likely at the war's beginning he was still in a line NCOs position. Notwithstanding that, I would agree with Rick that if he was in a paymaster's appointment within an infantry battalion there was plenty of scope for getting wounded!

Its difficult to make out the shoulder boards on the WW2 picture. I am assuming that part of the insignia is the "HV" with one or two pips. If its one pip he is an Oberzahlmeister (Oberleutnant), two pips - Stabszahlmeister (Hauptmann). The military officials did have a body of reserves - Wehrmachtbeamten des Beurlaubtenstandes

Glenn

[JensF.]

Hi,

I've just discovered that the Verdienstkreuz mit Schwertern is made of silver/gold plated bronze. Is this the later version, because after Hessenthal it should be made of silver.

Any opinions why this guy had sewn the new medal on his existing bar? Maybe he got no money to make a completely new bar...

Best regards

[JensF.]

Hi again,

now I've got more pics and informations of thsi guy. He was member of the 4. Württemb. Pionier Btl. Nr. 13, Ulm. Anyone got informations, where this unit took part during WWI?

I'll post more great pics soon.

[JensF.]

Brought up this thread for Claudio Ortelli. Here are the pics of the bar again:

[JensF.]

Back:

[JensF.]

And some pics of that guy. Here with EKII and Silver MMM ribbons:

[JensF.]

2:

[JensF.]

3:

[Stijn David]

nice nice nice .........

Hello,


Very nice bar => thats the least one can say + I have been searching this thread and thanks towards you guys ( for bringing it up again ) .

My observation is not regarding the Wurtemberg Verdienstkreuz but towards the Silver military merit medal => In a recent publication I received it is stated that these medals where always in silver ( even at the end of the war !! ) , the only thing that changed over the years ( as the war progressed ) was the silver content, for example =>

beginning : 993. Silver, at the end 250. Silver !!!!

The same is through with the golden counterpart => it changed from 986/1000 Goldcontent ( the medal itself weighs : 17.5 Gram towards 333/1000 Goldcontent ( the medal itself weighs : 13. Gram )

This was quite new towards me => as most other German kingdoms ( etc .. ) changed towards other ( cheaper ) materials, the Wurtembergers seem to held on for a pretty long time.

Are there other medals known where this is true ?

Cordial greetings,