NONcombatant EK2 on the COMBATANT ribbon?

[Brian R]

A believable combination?

Could this be a legit EKII 1914 for non-combatans on combatans ribbon?

The set-up seems clean. The EK and Honor Cross are both original (EK is 3 piece and magnetic). The pin construction is period and the reveerse is complete with grey felt. The ribbons do not glow.

Were these awardees generally oficers with extensive service or could they have been enlisted men with few awards? Thoughts?

Brian

[Rick Research]

I simply do not have ANY statistical basis to judge.

The only AWARD DOCUMENT I have ever seen for a noncombatant "black-white" (in my grubby little paws, of course ) was for a reserve Hauptmann in a homeland inspectorate job, 1915. I cannot post it here because of the new Forums size restrictions, and reducing it makes it illegible.

Groups show up with far more frequency than the 6,855 actual awards would seem to make credible.

This is one of those cases where there is actually no definitive way to tell without the paperwork.

[Rick Research]

Here's a snip from the HUGE 4 page document, with the crucial text highlighted.

"For war merit in the homeland" is the indicator per regulations.

[Brian R]

Thanks for the info, Rick.

I guess at this point I will consider it legit - it even has that smell that most bars do.

Your document showing "For war merit in the homeland" shows that these combos could have potentially been awrded to anyone - regardless of rank, postition etc. I've never really seen these combos before accept for the framed photo I included in the "Five Bucks on ebay" thread from about six months ago. That guy was surely a career officer who had seen quite a bit of service (China etc.).

Brian

[Rick Research]

Yup. I would expect these in some sort of Beamten groups-- the drawback being that in the published Rank Lists (last issued in 1932) with awards, there WAS no Hindenburg Cross... and so absolutely no way to tell from one of those if a "combat EK2" was or wasn't.

For all I know, the "black-whites" were given out in the first half of the war until SOMEBODY noticed, and then switched over to the regular 'white-black" noncombatant awards.

I just do not know. The ONLY document I have ever seen is the one I own.


Anybody else?

[stogieman]

Nope, all I have is the NonCom Document

...on the white/black ribbon from the 1920's.

[Tiger 1]

Hmmmmm.......

It's interesting that a 1957 version of this combination is discussed in the Crosses forum.

An unusual combination to say yhe least.

Tony

[WNickel]

Hi,

an ugly bar with combatant and non-combatant ribbons for a "Feuerwerker" in WW1.

Werner

[WNickel]

...and the bar of Marine-Oberstabsarzt Janssen - Marinelazarett Helgoland - who got the EK 1 1914....and the Hindenburg cross without swords

[Brian R]

The mystery continues...

Here is an interesting set of two documents (EK2/HC) to a Friedrich Parbs. Parbs was awarded the EK2 on Christmas Eve, 1916 as a member of Infanterie-Regiment von Manstein (Schleswig) Nr. 84. The EK2 doc was signed at Division Staff Headquarters by (Blue Max Winner) Major General Theodor von Watter. Parbs then received the Kriegsteilnehmer version of the 1914-1918 Honor Cross, almost 19 years later, on July 1, 1935. There is nothing on the EK doc that hints at Parbs winning the EK in a Non-Com role. I think that he was either accidentally given a Non-Com HC doc or he received it as the Combatatant version was unavailable at the time of his award. I have no other docs/info on this man. Thoughts?

Brian

[Brian R]

Hindenburg Cross doc...

[Brian R]

No comments on the docs above???

Here is an interesting Frack bar...
1914 EK2 (attached showing reverse)
Bavarian Military Merit Cross 2nd Class w/ Swords
Prussian War Aid Cross
Hindenburg Cross without Swords
12 Year Sevice Medal

Could this be one of these NonCom Bars? It is interesting that it has the Verdienstkreuz with swords but Hindenburg Cross without swords. Perhaps this was for a retired Beamten for wear during the 30s and 40s?

Brian

[Brian R]

Reverse...

[Rick Research]

I don't know how I missed the documents pair in January! Implausible as it sounds with a name like "Parbs," all I can suggest is that Papa the Old Landsturmmann got the EK and had died when couldn't shave in 1918 Junior eventually got the NCHC. I have a similar father/son documents group that came as a "set," but also included Junior's school records.

The only "error" I have seen on a Hindenburg Cross document is my Oberstleutnant aD Louis, who got his incorrectly filled out (wrong first name), sent it back to be corrected-- all they did was strike it out and a SECOND incorrect first name carelessly scribbled over it (!!!) causing him to write the German version of "@&$#* bureaucrats" and note that HE put his own first name on it!! So anything is possible!

The Frackspange is quite nice. Is the Hindenburg Cross the elusive Actual BRONZE? The first two ribbons just do not compute to a "noncombatant" NCO.

Without the documentation there is simply no way to be sure a Combatant Noncombatant is CORRECT...

and I think we've all seen enough period mistakes now to wonder about that vaunted Teutonic Efficiency!

[Brian R]

Thanks for all your help, Rick. However, I'm still a bit confused on your comment on the docs... "Papa the Old Landsturmmann got the EK and had died when couldn't shave in 1918 Junior eventually got the NCHC". Because he is the son he would get a NonCom doc as opposed to a Widows/Parents doc?

BTW, the Hindenburg Cross above is Bronze.

Thanks again,
Brian