Fake Womens and Virgins Cross

[gregM]

Here is the cross Mike was talking about.

[gregM]

again

[Roglebk]

In the last update from Niemann No. 01588 was a new cross from the mystery typ. I collecting about 20 years prussian decoration and have never before see so a cross. Now I think we will see more from that typ. Regards Mike

Hi Mike, do not like this cross due to the poor quality but thought it to be an original, do you think it's a fake?

[RAO]

Was sold as the first cross from this, I thought ok perhaps a repair. Now comes a second from this on the market. Never before have I seen such a red cross. Never I would buy so a cross.

Best Regards Mike

[Roglebk]

It's hard to tell if the core is indeed enameled or not from the pictures. It may be that the cross was laquered at some point i it's life. Pure speculation here without examining the actual piece in hand.

What we can tell with great certainty is that the frame assembly and beading details leave a lot to be desired when compared with known original Wagner or Godet examples.

Tony

Hi Tony, the above statement is very interesting! Do you know where it comes from and which version is which?

[Zepenthusiast]

Stumbled on this thread and can't resist throwing in two bits. Great series of crowns, Roglebk. I have been mulling over close-up photos of the crowns on hollow gold Pour le Merites and have come to the conclusion they may have been made by placement of a masking material over the crown (and lettering) shapes, to which the enamel was allowed to flow and cool. The mask was lifted/removed, leaving the bare metal to which chasing/detail could be applied. There is no doubt the PlM possesses stamped raised lettering, but the enamel would seem to overflow the latter in many areas and produce an even more fine-lined outcome (consistent with what we see on this cross.) Not having access to either an original hollow gold PlM or these crosses, I can only speculate, but you might check to see if, under a microscope or high magnification, the enameling shows a sharp demarcation line and elevation over the metal, consistent with the postulated mask. Given the latter, the crown variations make complete sense, as the outcome would be determined by the artistry of the exact mask used and the subsequent detailing applied following its removal...

Jim/Zep

[Roglebk]

Stumbled on this thread and can't resist throwing in two bits. Great series of crowns, Roglebk. I have been mulling over close-up photos of the crowns on hollow gold Pour le Merites and have come to the conclusion they may have been made by placement of a masking material over the crown (and lettering) shapes, to which the enamel was allowed to flow and cool. The mask was lifted/removed, leaving the bare metal to which chasing/detail could be applied. There is no doubt the PlM possesses stamped raised lettering, but the enamel would seem to overflow the latter in many areas and produce an even more fine-lined outcome (consistent with what we see on this cross.) Not having access to either an original hollow gold PlM or these crosses, I can only speculate, but you might check to see if, under a microscope or high magnification, the enameling shows a sharp demarcation line and elevation over the metal, consistent with the postulated mask. Given the latter, the crown variations make complete sense, as the outcome would be determined by the artistry of the exact mask used and the subsequent detailing applied following its removal...

Jim/Zep

Hi Jim, there is no such line on either of the 2 crosses i have, took a look with a 20X loupe. There is really no need for any "masking material" since the enamel is in powder form and can be placed wherever the maker wanted it to be prior to baking the core in a high heat oven. Do not believe anymore that the enamel was sanded and polished down to the edge of the details. The enamel is not flat, it's a bit higher in the middle. Been reading up on enamelling techniques and it seems like the enamel gets very nice and flat when baking it. My best guess is that they, by hand, chiseled the core details out of a solid plate of silver and after that the engraving was done prior to adding the enamel powder and baked the core in an oven. Hand chiseling the details would explain the differencies in the cores. The type of "transfering machine" seen below was not invented until 1938 and if they used something like it the cores would all look the same. http://www.gravograph.co.uk/Engravin...chines/IM3.php
Same goes for the die stamped core theory.

[Zepenthusiast]

Hi Carl, what puzzles me, as it does with the PlMs, is how one can get such sharply demarcated edges--often very straight edges and sharp corners--to components on the crowns and lettering when dealing with glass which was in a liquid state, even if it were viscous and very thin. Melting anything, due to surface tension issues, will tend to produce rounded corners and slightly wavy edges. Few people could paint a line that straight with a fine paintbrush or even do a credible job with a pen, without using a straightedge, yet we are considering tiny beads being brushed or nudged into place. If the crown and lettering is not raised from the surface, by stamping a positive image from a recessed die, for instance, it would seem difficult to produce such complex design work and leave an edge against which the molten glass could form. If I follow you, are you thinking the lettering and crowns were demarcated in relief from the surrounds by chiseling away the adjacent metal? This would seem like a great deal of effort, though certainly a dedicated artist could do so.

Jim

[Roglebk]

Hi Carl, what puzzles me, as it does with the PlMs, is how one can get such sharply demarcated edges--often very straight edges and sharp corners--to components on the crowns and lettering when dealing with glass which was in a liquid state, even if it were viscous and very thin. Melting anything, due to surface tension issues, will tend to produce rounded corners and slightly wavy edges. Few people could paint a line that straight with a fine paintbrush or even do a credible job with a pen, without using a straightedge, yet we are considering tiny beads being brushed or nudged into place. If the crown and lettering is not raised from the surface, by stamping a positive image from a recessed die, for instance, it would seem difficult to produce such complex design work and leave an edge against which the molten glass could form. If I follow you, are you thinking the lettering and crowns were demarcated in relief from the surrounds by chiseling away the adjacent metal? This would seem like a great deal of effort, though certainly a dedicated artist could do so.

Jim

Hi Jim, the surface tension teory is exactly why i believe the core was not sanded down and polished after the baking of the enamel. It looks like the enamel is not totally flat, slightly raised in the middle that makes the reflection distorted. Do not know about the PlM's but the 2 F&J i got has raised core details that the enamel flowed against. First believed that the core was die struck but the multiple crowns found suggests it was not. Either the surrounding metal was chiseled away or the details are laid on the core. Either methods must have been extremly time consuming and needed to be done by skilled jewellers.

[Zepenthusiast]

I likewise am skeptical about the prevailing belief that much polishing was done on PlM enamel, either, Carl. Close-up photos show little evidence of the abrasive's streaks extending from the surface of the glass onto the adjacent metal, though the latter often has its own pattern (which contributes to the sparkle of the lettering and crown.) One thing which would reduce the amount of hand work on these crowns would be a fundamental stamping of the core, followed by hand finishing. It's interesting to note the close-up most immediately below lacks the enamel in the base of the crown, unlike those in your assembled collage, too.

Jim

[Roglebk]

I likewise am skeptical about the prevailing belief that much polishing was done on PlM enamel, either, Carl. Close-up photos show little evidence of the abrasive's streaks extending from the surface of the glass onto the adjacent metal, though the latter often has its own pattern (which contributes to the sparkle of the lettering and crown.) One thing which would reduce the amount of hand work on these crowns would be a fundamental stamping of the core, followed by hand finishing. It's interesting to note the close-up most immediately below lacks the enamel in the base of the crown, unlike those in your assembled collage, too.

Jim

That was one of the things that turned me around in the end. Now believe they are fake, good thing they are easily spotted. All hail to Don and Mike who pinned these ones at once!

[Wild Card]

With all of the interest generated in this award along with the tremendous amount of information brought forth, I thought that some of you might to see what the award document looks like. This one was given to Frau Cantor Elise Rosenthal, nee Behre on 18 June 1871.

[Wild Card]

For the record, she also received the 1870-71 noncombatants medal.

[gregM]

That is a wonderful document. There can not be very many surviving
examples of these documents around.

[Wild Card]

Thank you gregM.

Over the years, this is the only such document that I can recall seeing.
I think that it is interesting that this award did not come with a document
with a more customized design - like the one in post #43.

Best wishes,

Wild Card