PLM How many are there?

[Brian S]

PLM's were awarded for several years to thousands of recipients.

If my understanding is correct, the last wartime recipient was Paul Behncke on 4.12.1918. He was the 5,414th recipient.

Again, if I'm not mistaken, there were 261 total oakleave recipients, the last, Arthur v. Lindequist on 7.11.1918.

Only 147 with Crowns were awarded the last in 1899.

In 1900, the 4,718th PLM was awarded. Between 1900 and 1918, therefore, there were slightly less than 700 PLM's awarded.

In 1901 the 139th oakleaf was awarded. Between 1900 and 1918, therefore, there were about 120 oakleaves bestowed.

Where are they?

It was the 'LAW', I am told, that upon the death of the recipient, the PLM's and oakleaves were 'given back'. The recipients were mostly proud Prussians who would have obeyed the 'law' and the awards would have been returned following a last presentation on a felt pillow during the funeral services. As late as 1949, one proud recipient demanded ALL his awards be 'turned in'.

I believe it is safe to say that not all 700 recipients, above, lived beyond 1945 and we can determine that nearly all of those awards were 'turned in' upon their death. The same is true with the 120 oakleaves.

I would guess that nearly all recipients before 1900 were passed away by 1945 and giving back their PLMs. They are out of the count of PLMs on the market today.

So how many real PLMs and oakleaves are 'out there'? Wouldn't that be a function of the recipients who lived beyond 1945?

When a recipient 'turned in' his PLM did it 'go away'? Were they stored and put on display? Were they all stolen?

Does anyone have any numbers on the recipients living beyond 1945?

[Thierry Tixier]

PLM's were awarded for several years to thousands of recipients.

If my understanding is correct, the last wartime recipient was Paul Behncke on 4.12.1918. He was the 5,414th recipient.

The last PLM holders is Leutnant d. Res DOERR Gustav (N° 5415) as Flugzeugfhr i. d. Jagdstaffel 45 (35 victoires) on 17 January 1919.

[Brian S]

Saw that also. I was sticking to wartime. What about the issue above?

[Christian L]

i more or less don't know anything about the plm.
therefor my question:
who awarded the plm to Leutnant d. Res doerr after the end of the war?
christian

[Brian S]

i more or less don't know anything about the plm.
therefor my question:
who awarded the plm to Leutnant d. Res doerr after the end of the war?
christian

And this is how a thread changes direction...

[Daniel Krause]

Na ja,

there are some decoartions which were AWARDED still by the King, but HANDED OUT later. Nobody could award a plm but the King.
How many are around?? Who knows??? People who lived quite long enough had for sure not only one. The plm was worn nearly daily on the Uniforn and thats why recipients had more than one for a daily wear. Before 1918 the private purchased crosses were mostly exactly the same as the awarded ones and made by the very same makers. Áfter the death of a recipient the awarded ones had to be returned, but the private bought ones could be kept by the family.

Best regards

Daniel

[Rolf D.]

Why did they need to be returned?

[Daniel Krause]

Nearly all states had such regulations.
The Orders and some decorations were "Verliehen" which meant something like loaned for the lifetime. The awards had to be returned after the repipients death to the orders chancellary.
The orders mad of gold and other valuable metals were then re-awarded to other recipients.
The Familys could just keep some decorations and of course the private purchased ones.
Prussia had for example some more rules. Orders had to be returned, war medals had to be given to the regional church for display and the remaining decorations could be kept in the Family.

Best regards

Daniel

[Brian S]

Daniel, was there anything on the award document which dictates the return?

I think private purchase PLMs are much less scarce than we might otherwise believe. Worn everyday yes, but carefully!

[Dietrich Maerz]

Daniel, was there anything on the award document which dictates the return?

I think private purchase PLMs are much less scarce than we might otherwise believe. Worn everyday yes, but carefully!

Brian,

I can help you only with the regulations during the 3. Reich. As per "Verordnung zur Ausführung des Gesetzes über Titel, Orden und Ehrenzeichen" dated Nov. 14 1935, Paragraph 15 states under the title "Rückgabe verliehener Orden und Ehrenzeichen" (return of orders and medals) under section 1:

Die für Verdienste im Weltkriege verliehenen Orden und Ehrenzeichen verbleiben nach dem Tode des Inhabers im Besitz der Hinterblieben
(orders and medals earned during the Great War stay after the death of the recipient with the family)

section 2 states:

Soweit für andere Orden und Ehrenzeichen eine Rückgabepflicht besteht, koennen sie von den Inhabern oder ihren Hinterbliebenen käuflich erworben werden. ...

(orders that must be returned can be purchased by the recipient or by the family after the recipients deaths) It also states that in special cases neither returning nor payment might be neccessary.

I would think that most of the people did either buy or just not return the orders. I don't see this law being enforced during the 3. Reich.


There is another statement later that the central office for returning all prussian orders is dissolved on 1st May 1938 and that all such orders should now be returned to the local authorities (Landrat, Polizei or Bürgermeister). Yeah, right!!


I don't think you will have a lot of PLM loss during the 3. Reich!!

Hope this helps. Can copy or scan the relevant pages for you, if need be.

Dietrich

[Brian S]

Thanks Dietrich, I absolutely agree with you that during the 3 Reich few to even fewer would have turned in their decorations. I can think of only one exception who in 1949 wanted them turned in. I am searching for that letter which might explain that in spite of the 'law' some these warriors felt a part of a Prussian past law that must be upheld in spite of the 3 Reich and subsequent Occupation.

The saving grace for many of these decorations (e.g. the ones in my possession) were NOT turned in to the existing powers that were.

That probably being the case for many desendants would cause a great percentage of the 700 PLM's and 120 Oaks to survive in families and museums.

Until someone compiles a death list of PLM recipients we can only guess. But for my money I'm figuring at BEST 70% survived the war leaving maybe 500 in families and private hands from original recipients.

There might be a few collections in Texas that would disagree with my best guess conclusions.

My motive is to try to create an air of great uncertainly to anyone who might be reading here and considering the purchase of a PLM and/or Oaks.

I know we'll probably not get to a definitive number, but I hope you will agree it MUST be very small. Compared to existing RK's, the PLM is probably 1/20th the population of an RK, at best. And I'm speaking to award PLM's not the great unknown, the so called, private purchase pieces.

I know the two Ricks are probably scratching their heads wondering why I'm even writing this... The PLM threads keep popping up. Is this one real, that one real. Somebody is buying a lot of these fakes.

But, look at that beauty on Hermann Historia in the current auction A rare opportunity to own the PLM, the document, AND the miniature. Bidding starts at 10,000 Euros. And don't forget the 20% thanks for shopping here surcharge.

[Daniel Krause]

Hi Brian,

the award document did not say anything about the return policy. If somebody got a higher degree of an Order he received also a letter to return the lower grade. For example one got the RAO2 with oaks he had to return the RAO3 with bow if not awarded with swords or crown.
After the death of a recipient in Imperial time the Family had to return his decorations. Rarely it was allowed to keep it. As far as I know in Weimar time it was possible to pay the value of the awards instead to return it.

Best regards

Daniel

[johnrtse]

Prussia had for example some more rules. Orders had to be returned, war medals had to be given to the regional church for display and the remaining decorations could be kept in the Family.

Forget searching flea markets, eBay, gun shows, and estate sales; Head for the Churches!!!!

Has anyone of our German or European friends seen military medals on display in a church over there?


John

[Daniel Krause]

You will not believe it but I´ve seen!

The regulations have been like that and even if the awards are not displayed today You can still find churches in Germany where even plenty of medal bars are taking dust in some chamber.

Best regards

Daniel

[Brian S]

You will not believe it but I´ve seen!

The regulations have been like that and even if the awards are not displayed today You can still find churches in Germany where even plenty of medal bars are taking dust in some chamber.

Best regards

Daniel