Imperial German Silver Marks

[Erich B.]

I noted on a prior thread that it was considered a good feature that a Junckers pilot's badge marking did not include a crown. Does the crown mark signify a badge of post WWI manufacture?
Erich

[stogieman]

Touchy Subject!

Hi Erich, this one's a touchy subject. No shortage of debates over the crown mark and the plethora of badges with it. The fact remains, after discussions, in depth, with every major German dealer...... No Imperial flight badge that was received by any of these dealers from the original recipient, or from the recipient's family, had a crown mark. Personally, I would not touch a badge with this mark unless it was under $100. And then, only maybe. Once upon a time, I had an extensive group of badges like this, all with this mark. I sent them to Germany for an insurance evaluation and was told point blank that every one was a fake. An expensive lesson and I try hard to share that so others don't get stuck like I did.

[Erich B.]

Silver markings

Thanks Rick--that's very good to know. I collect mainly SA related items, but do have a WWI Observer badge, hollow, rayed back, with only the crescent moon and '800'. I'd like to find a similar quality pilot's badge, but most that I find do have a crown as part of the markings. I will certainly take your advice!

Another clue--I have a few pieces of AH silverware, and that is marked with crescent moon, crown, 800, and a spreadwinged eagle (like the Prussian type). I believe these markings date from the mid to late 1930s.

Thanks again,
Erich

[stogieman]

silver marks

Hi Erich, some of these are Berlin marks for silver, some are Hohenzollern (Prussian decree) You'll see lots of Wagner items bearing crown, moon and content, but Juncker items don't have them, so.... It's an interesting debate. Can you post pix of your badge? I'd love to see it. Rick Lundstrom has more information on silver marks, it comes up on a regular basis in here!

[Rick Research]

I'm just as confused as anybody else... the Imperial Crown and Crescent are Berlin city silver marks, and were still being used on things like silverware in the 1990s. I suspect that, oddly enough, the crown dates AFTER the monarchy, maybe from the 1920s, when a lot of "swank" deluxe badges were made for briefly prosperous veterans.

[Erich B.]

Thanks to you both for the information. I just received a digital camera, but need a cable to download the photos to my computer. If I can get one, I will be happy to post photos of the badge. I usually use a flatbed scanner, but it would be impossible to get the markings with that.
Erich

[Eric Stahlhut]

Bumped up

Hi Guys!

Just thought I'd revive this thread. So! All of those marvelous 1914 bars to the 1870 EK (Wiederholungsspangen) with the crown are made in the 20's?

According to the logic on this thread so far that is what the case would be.

Unless, of course Wagner was the only firm that used a crown as a proof mark...

Rick,

According to S. Previtera: "By a law passed on November 30, 1874, and stipulated by Prussian State statute dated January 7, 1886, all articles of silver had to include the crescent and crown combination. The crescent moon represents silver, the crown, the Prussian state."

IMO opinion the crown stamp is merely a tax stamp. It would be interesting to find out why Juncker didn't have to have this feature on their badges, because, after all, they were based out of Berlin, no?

[Rick Research]

Every single Wagner made Prussian Railways long service brooch I have ever seen HAS had the crown and moon.

[McCulloh]

my .02 Euros

The Crown mark has actually been used since the late 18th century in Prussia. I have the 4 volume Goldschmeid set put out by Antonius Verlag in Munchen, 1923 and they have an extensive series of pages on Berlin city and Prussian marks-notibly the Crown, half moon etc.. Alas, although the books start in @1450, the last marks they illustrate comprehensivly are only up to @1830. As such it should be used on private pieces, not mint made ones.
Cheers,
JeMc

[stogieman]

Yes but!

You will see the crown mark on railway badges by Wagner, but the Wagner Hohenzollern Knight's Crosses, bear a 938 silver stamp, and a "W" ONLY! <br>
You will not see badges hallmarked for Sye & Wagner, BUT you will see Hohenzollern KC's with 938, crown and half moon marks!
<br>
What we know for sure, is that NO Juncker flight badge, presented to an original recipient, prior to 1918; had a CROWN stamp! This information comes from repeated observations of badges that were received direct from the recipient, or his surviving family!<br>
Now, you can say that the crown mark appears on post 1918 badges by Juncker, but I put forth this question: WHY would they start using a PRUSSIAN, CITY OF BERLIN, or whatever mark AFTER the fall of the empire????<br>
Again, you will not see this crown mark on OTHER maker's pieces, bearing silver stamps, that were definately made post 1920!<br>
I believe that the more we explore this issue, we may find that the crown mark is unique to pieces made by "W", or "S&W". No other maker that I have seen used the crown mark prior to 1918. This includes the big and major firms of Houssauer, (sp?), Friedlander, etc. who were all MAJOR Berlin jewelers and gold/silversmiths! ALSO! You will find NO examples of an awarded, pre-1918 Golden Military Merit Cross, or Military Ehrenzeichen, 1.kl., made by Wagner and silver stamped 938, from 1866 through 1918! So even Wagner was inconsistent with the utilization of the crown mark. You'll see that crown mark on Honor Goblets though!<br>
Bottom line remains the same, if you want to pay $350-$800 for Crown marked badges, IMO, you're nuts!<br>
Crown mark aside, not a single one of these "crown" badges has the definition, detail, quality and feel of genuine pre-1918 badges!

[Rick Research]

True-- with all the chaos, it does seem to be a "maker specific" issue!

[stogieman]

Military Trader Article!

The recent article in Military Trader has done a huge dis-service to the collector. The gentleman who wrote this article has been in contact with me repeatedly regarding this subject, he also uses some of my images on his website. It is laughable to me that people still insist on trying to desperately make the argument that badges with the crown are period-issue badges. I fail to understand why the facts of the situation just do not glare forth. I mean really, citing hand-struck, double-struck Juncker hallmarks as "must be originals with the crown", or the thought process that a badge without the crown is due to people trying to avoid prosecution in Germany for faking hallmarks/maker marks, is laughable. If the badges without the crowns are the "real" fakes, why don't we see hundreds of them?? You don't, do you?! BUT, awful lot of crown badges around! hmmmmm! moremad moremad

[Rick Research]

I dunno... it does seem to vary from maker to maker. Wagner ALWAYS used the crown...

there is one error I noticed there, where despite the author noting Third Reich Wagner Honor Goblets with the crown and moon, he said that the crown was NOT used after 1918...

I have a souvenir piece of silver given as a birthday present to later-Admiral Böning by Dönitz and the other boys at U-Flotilla "Weddigen" in 1936-- hallmarked with that maker's emblem, crescent moon, and crown, and no, I don't think they bought it used in a junk shop and recycled it. My mom ordered a silver dinner service for 36 for her then-boss in the mid-1990s from a Berlin maker and you guessed it, all three marks-- maker, moon, crown.

Because Wagner marked ALL those railways long service brooches with the three marks, I am not convinced that crown = postwar.

I am still as confused as ever by the seeming inconsistencies, and all I can say is take each PIECE on its own, regardless of what marks are or aren't on there. Never buy any badge for the mark alone.

And in the meantime, I am keeping my collection "on the ground!"

[stogieman]

How about this one???????????

You can be the proud owner of "the only genuine tank badge I've ever seen", for the paltry sum of $850.00. You guessed it boys and girls, can we all say "Half moon, Crown and 800". Go for it, but don't forget that beach front real estate I have in Utah. it's still available........

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...item=719488428