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**Rick Research** · 02-16-2002, 04:39 PM

What color is the backing on the ribbon bars? Oh well, back I go into thousands of pages of Gothic type and obscure tiny emblems again...

The top bar would have been HOPELESS unless this officer continued on the the Reichswehr: because all there was pre-WWI on top is a Red Eagle Order ribbon!

But from the full (we hope!!!) bar below, that adds a Crown to the Red Eagle, a Brunswick House Order of Henry the Lion-Knight, and a Bavarian Military Merit Order 4th Class, as well as pre-March 1897 seniority and a STEEL Southwest Africa Medal.

Again, with only a SWA ribbon and not the mini, I'd be looking for a Prussian Crown Order 4th Class with Swords as that 2nd ribbon--very odd not to find a Crown over it the way the Hohenzollern House Order (on mini chain) is normally worn.

Without the mini chain, BOTH of these ribbon bars would have played "tricks" on anyone trying to identify the holder from the group!

I expect this man will turn out to have been a Major im Generalstab, probably aD as an Oberstleutnant.

**Daniel Krause** · 02-16-2002, 05:26 PM

Thank You Rick!
Sorry, I forgot the back picture. It is grey wool.

Just got a tip from another side. The Württemberg Crown Order with swords (pos.4) is quite unusual and was rarely awarded in WW1 in contrary to the Friedrichsorden. Unfortunately Michael Autengruber didn´t publish a book about Württemberg recipients jet. To use swords and a crown to show a Hohenzollern was not usual from the beginning. I´ve seen medal bars with the Hohenzollern, the Red Eagle and the Crown Order all with swords and the ribbon war with 3 equally ribbons side by side.

Greetings

Daniel

**Bill M** · 02-16-2002, 06:23 PM

--That's the best chain I've ever seen!

--25 posts and you've amazed me twice in a day, keep `em coming!!!
--Good to have you here Daniel.

**Klaus O.** · 02-17-2002, 05:02 AM

Daniel (oder sollte ich sagen Herr Spiess?),

Wow, great chain! I have never seen such a big crown device on the ribbon of the red eagle order. Can you tell us more about the provenance of these two items (chain and ribbon bar)?

Thank you,

Claudio Ortelli

**Daniel Krause** · 02-17-2002, 05:21 AM

Hi Bill, Hi Claudio, call me "Daniel" "Spiess" is just my nickname because I was one for some years.

a friend got the chain and the 2 ribbon bars from a private seller. He also ´doesn´t know about the background. It is sometimes funny in Germany how people are hiding the history of their family. I also bought a lot of stuff from familys without documents or information about the holder. So the chain and the big BIG bar is still at my friend, the big bar is in my collection. So both of us is trying to find out more but You see what Rick is writing.

I have some more BIG ribbon bars without the background history. I will post it step by step and hope You wonderful people may help me to find out more.

Greetings

Daniel

**Rick Research** · 02-17-2002, 02:37 PM

The reverse of Daniel's ribbon bar shows Feldgrau paint finish. Most of them I've seen were presumably actual WWI period, though I have seen some of these as late as the 1930s (old delaers' stock being used up?) They were the first type to have pointed rather than blunt pins, and were also the first type to have detachable tabs for each ribbon on that style of bar.

I have seen the grotesque oversized Red Eagle Crown on a naval group that was split up on ebay last year.

So far, Daniel: the owner was NOT: ever Navy, in Reichsheer, in pre-WWI General Staff. I'm working my way through the regimental officers now.

I just got in nice scans from Charlie Woolley of a sewn on 14 ribbon bar on Duke Robert von Württemberg's Uhlan tunic, that will be in my Ribbon Bar Article. Unlike the three row WW2 one Daniel has in the main Wehrmacht Forum, the Duke's bar is in one enormous long bar all the way across his chest. Luckily that style tunic was double breasted so no buttons got in the way!

Everything about the group Daniel shows above says "HQ Staff Major" to me. The Wtbg Crown Order-Knight with Swords was a typical award to non-Wtbg officers in the rank of Major. A Friedrich Order-Knight 1st with Swords was considered more appropriate for a Hauptmann/Rittmeister.

Also, Württemberg had the weirdest award regulations in WWI of anyplace I have ever heard of, requiring many lower awards to be returned when a higher one was bestowed, until about 1917. They then noticed that they were "underdressed" with only ONE ribbon when other officers would have three, and began RE-awarding decorations again.

So a Leutnant who got a Friedrich Order-Knight 2nd with Swords in 1915 had to RETURN it when he got a Military Merit Order-Knight in 1916, but then could be awarded a SECOND Friedrich Order with Swords in 1917--and only be able to wear one of them.

**Daniel Krause** · 02-23-2002, 07:47 AM

Hi Rick,

Thank You for Your help.
I´m still thinking, the Württemberg Crown order might be the "hot spot".
Klietmann is writing("Pour le Merite und Tapferkeitsmedaille" 1966), that in WW1 were awarded only 53 knights crosses 1st class and 182 knights crosses 2nd class with swords.
In relation to the frederick order (knight 1st class 1766, 2nd class 5111) it is quite rare.
Do You have any source about Württemberg awards in WW1?

Greetings

Daniel

**Rick Research** · 02-23-2002, 09:49 AM

Unfortunately, no. The instant I hear that Michael Autengruber has award rolls published, I'll have 'em ordered!

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