Militarverdienstkreuz and ...

[John5813]

All,

I am wondering if there were any recipients of a Prussian Golden MVK who also received either a Gold St Heinrich's Medal or Bavarian Gold Bravery Medal or any other high NCO award. I know there examples of this on the officer side, ie PlM/MMJO etc., but how about enlisted men? Let me know.

John

[W McSwiggan]

Works in Horse Shoes...

Hi,

This does not answer your question exactly but it does represent an interesting observation.

Per Neal O’Connor, Max Ritter von Muller was awarded both the Gold & Silver Bravery Medals from his native Bavaria. While not awarded the Golden Military Merit Cross from Prussia – he was awarded the far more rare Member’s Cross of the Royal Hollenzollern House Order (awarded only 10 times to aviation personnel). This award is considered more prestigious than the Military Merit Cross by many including myself although I know of no specific regulation delineating between the two. As you may know – after being promoted out of the ranks to officer, Muller was awarded the Military Max-Joseph Order and the Orden Pour le Merite.

Close but perhaps no cigar in answer to your question.

wem

[Rick Research]

There might have been an isolated example or two, but not that I have ever encountered or can recall O'Connor ever finding even in the elite and "press darlings" air corps. Enlisted men were always at the bottom of the rewards heap and extremely unlikely to get even ordinary awards from another state.

Most two state groups for enlisted men result from EVERYBODY being eligible for the Iron Cross, and then they received the award(s) of their own home state too. To find an enlisted group with even a THIRD state's award is quite unusual, to find one with awards from four states all but unheard of unless some of those were the non-German Central Powers allies.

There always had to be a REASON for awards. Main reasons were citizenship, or direct assistance to a unit form the state in question--most often when divisions had mixed troop contingents.The aviators with their publicity often were simply handed things by states eager to assert a connection with the short lived celebrity of the moment, but the average enlisted man was not in that category.

[Dave Danner]

Max Ritter von Müller also received the Golden Military Merit Medal from Württemberg. With the Prussian HHO Member's Cross and the Bavarian Golden Bravery Medal, that gives him three states' highest NCO honors. Of course, he was an officer candidate rather than a typical NCO. And of course, as noted, he didn't have Prussia's other highest NCO award, the Golden MVK.

Someone who did have the Golden MVK and another high NCO award was Karl Thom, but his other award was the Member's Cross. So technically he fits your question, but since you were really looking for multi-state awardees, he doesn't. He does, however, have the distinction of having no less than five Prussian awards - the gMVK, the HHO Member's Cross, the PlM and the EKI and II. And despite his accomplishments, he appears to have nothing from any other state.

Dave

[Klaus O.]

Lt. Ritter Max von Müller

Here's more or less the ribbon bar of von Müller... I am having so much fun in "creating" these bars...

Ciao,

Claudio

[Klaus O.]

Medal bar's repro of Max Ritter von Müller

Here's a nice replication from Neal W. O'Connor's beautiful book "Aviation Awards of Imperial Cermany in World War I", Volume IV, of the bar of the above-mentioned Bavarian "Ace", who went through the ranks as NCO up to officer earning the most coveted Bavarian and Prussian Gallantry medals and orders.

Ciao,

Claudio

[John5813]

All,

Thank you for your replies. I think it is a shame that whereas an officer could receive his state's highest award and, in some instances, the PlM, an enlisted man who received his state's highest award for non-officers was less likely to receive the Golden MVK. From what I have been able to find there were approximately 1000 more awards of the Golden MVK versus the PlM during WWI and yet is extremely rare to find recipients of an MVK/ GBM. I don't know.

The info concerning Ritter von Muller was great! Didn't know about the BMMO4X and WurtGMMM. Thanks guys. I can remember reading somewhere about a recipient of both the Wurt GMMM and SMMM who also received the Golden MVK. Would like to learn more. Thanks again.

John

[JensF.]

*gulp* THATS a BIG BAR!

[Brian S]

What a very cool medal bar. Nice work with the editor there Claudio! Now if you had all those singles lying around, a replication bar like that would be a nice way to go.

[Dave Danner]

Big, but just one of O'Connor's creations. Müller's actual bar, visible in his Sanke cards, has only the golden bravery medal, not both (a practice O'Connor mentions but for some reason didn't follow). His ennobling with the MMJO was posthumous.



Dave

[Dave Danner]

I think it is a shame that whereas an officer could receive his state's highest award and, in some instances, the PlM, an enlisted man who received his state's highest award for non-officers was less likely to receive the Golden MVK. From what I have been able to find there were approximately 1000 more awards of the Golden MVK versus the PlM during WWI and yet is extremely rare to find recipients of an MVK/ GBM. I don't know.
* * *
John

John, regarding your observation, outside of high-profile fighter pilots and royals, it was also relatively rare for officers to receive the highest awards of more than one state. Non-Saxons were far more likely to get the Albert Order than the MSHO, non-Bavarian MMJO knights were rare (maybe non-existent), non-Badeners usually got the Zähringen Lion, non-Württembergers usually the Friedrich Order. And like the EK, the PlM really does occupy a special category as an almost German, rather than Prussian, award.

The Württemberg Military Merit Order in the grade of Knight was awarded, according to Boger's study, 2,183 times (according to O'Connor, he appears to be short a few, but has the most reliable number). Moser's study, limited to native Württembergers and officers of Württemberg units, shows 2,133 knights. So only about 2% went to people without a Württemberg connection.

As for Saxony, the statutes of the MSHO limited it to "commissioned officers in the service of the King of Saxony." Despite this, there were recipients without a Saxon connection, but as with the Württemberg MVO, only a small percentage. Among aviation recipients, which O'Connor calculates, it was 4% without a Saxon connection. It was probably lower for non-aviators.

As for Baden, you can look at the list of MKFVO knights in the other thread and see how many went to members of Baden regiments (assuming you have a list of Baden regiments). O'Connor's research is impressive, but he focuses on aviators. Of the 8 aviators receiving the MKFVO, 6 were Badeners and 2 (Göring and Loerzer) had been lieutenants in a Baden regiment before becoming fliers.

Even the PlM isn't as widespread as you might think. Of the 76 PlMs to aviators, O'Connor notes that only 9 went to Bavarians, 4 to Saxons, 1 to a Württemberger (Köhl) and 1 to a Badener (Dossenbach). And two of those Bavarians did not get the MMJO.

Dave

[John5813]

Dave,

Thanks for the informative reply. I do have a question that might clear a few things up. I have heard the Golden MVK referred to as the enlisted man's PlM and since the PlM was sort of a "German" award rather than Prussian, wouldn't the Golden MVK be treated the same way? You probably answered the question with to your reference to the EK also being a "German" award. My only problem with this is the amount of EK2 awards during WWI. I just feel that it began to lack the prestige that it had earlier in it's history and doesn't quite compare to the PlM as the Golden MVK does. Hope this clears things up. My interest was wanting to see, for example, a Bavrian who received the GBM also receiving the Golden MVK. Guess this was a pretty rare, if it happened at all, ocurrance.

John

[Dave Danner]

For Prussians, the Golden MVK was the "Pour le Mérite for NCOs and enlisted men". Even then, it was a rare award until the last year of the war. That said, there are non-Prussian recipients like the Oldenburger Willy Bartschis and the Hessian Julius Buckler.

As noted, NCOs rarely received awards from other states at all. And if they did, it wouldn't likely be that state's highest awards. Non-Bavarians might get the Military Merit Cross, non-Badeners the Merit Medal, non-Saxons the Friedrich August Medal, non-Württembergers the silver Military Merit Medal. Again, even these are uncommon. The only NCO bar I have with more than two states represented has the EK2, a Saxe-Meiningen Medal for Merit in War and an Austrian Bravery Medal (fitting Rick's description of a multi-state group to a T).

But again, I should note that the PlM, although widely awarded to soldiers from other states, still was a heavily Prussian award. There were 174 awards to junior officers in World War One. Of the 76 aviation awards, 15 went to Bavarians, Saxons, Württembergers and Badeners (there were also 2 Oldenburgers, a Hessian or two, 1 or 2 Anhalters and some others from the other states). My guess is the 100 or so non-aviator junior officers were probably even more heavily Prussian (although probably the most famous was a Württemberger - Erwin Rommel). So of 174 awards, 25 or so likely went to junior officers from the three other kingdoms and Baden. Assuming the other states add another 15-20 (which may be high), Prussians still account for well over 3/4s of junior officer PlMs.

I wonder if anyone has actually done a study, though?

Of course, the vast majority of PlMs went to senior officers, and they got lots of other gongs as well.

Among collectors, we tend to have aviator-itis. They got the glory, Sanke cards, chicks and gongs. But they are a fairly unrepresentative sample of how the awards scheme worked in practice. In WW2, of course, U-Boot commanders and a few Panzer types joined the fighter pilots in fame. And we infantrymen just kept slogging away.

Dave

[stogieman]

Nice research!

Gentlemen, an excellent and informative thread. Dave, your ability to process the un-related sources is quite nice and thanks! I'll make sure these ones stick around!

[Dave Danner]

Thanks for the kind words. If the idiots at Chase Automotive Finance weren't going to take 21 days to send me a certified copy of my title so I could get new tags, I would have tried to drive to Lowell this weekend and I could say hey! in person.

Regarding non-Bavarian MMJO knights: I don't have any good Bavarian sources, but one web site mentioned in passing that 300 MMJOs of all classes were conferred during the war - Grand Cross (25), Commander’s Cross (22), Knight’s Cross (253) - of which 35 were to non-Bavarians. I would guess a fair number of the non-Bavarians were in the higher classes as awards to royals and generals.

Dave