Mostly Austrian Medal Bar

[Jimmy]

Mostly Austrian/Hungarian Medal Bar with a little imperial and a little 3rd Reich.

[Jimmy]

Rear

Rear

[McCulloh]

I do not think it's pre-1945.

[Jimmy]

What? Why? What difference does the year make to the vet who had it built? Or do think it is a total fabrication and not a real medal bar?

[Jimmy]

Detlev Nieman Guarantee

Detlev Nieman Guarantee on the above in questioned medal bar.

[McCulloh]

why I say so-

Well, if you are happy with it good enough-but I doubt:

1. #2 (post 1939/40) and second to the last medals' placement. Given this is supposedly an Austrian Captain's (+) bar, it is highly doubtful that he would have placed the Austrian 14-18 medal at the end-AS A FOREIGN AWARD after 1938 and the KVKx means he was IN military uniform, in 1940.
The story of the bar supposedly says "war-time mid-level, insanely brave Austrian officer who had this bar made in 1939/40". But questions are:
1. Why no long service medals? (Awards of these ceased @1940)
2. If an officer, how did he manage TWO Signum Laudis awards (but also note the ribbons-NO SWORDS) and no officer's merit cross and
3. Placement of Austrian 14-18 medal.
4. Also, the award of the TWO Franz Joseph bravery medals indicates enlisted rank at the time (as these were only allowed to officers mid-war as I recall). Note also these lack a "K" on the ribbon, as denoted officer's rank. Promotion to officer starting at enlisted was unusual, but going to Hauptman+ level starting as an enlisted guy was (almost) unheard of.

If this man was a war volunteer Doctor who volunteered in 14/15 as a medic and somehow got to full Arzt later in the war (note Karl SL medal denoting awards in 1917-18) and then got recalled in 1940-41 too late to get LS medals (which sometimes happened anyway) then maybe this is the story-but I don't like the unlikeliness of this story and the construction. It might be original, but I think odds are against it.

I am sure the medals are original, but I do not think the bar is pre 1945. Detlev is good, but he is not perfect and @ 7 years ago he had a number of Austrian bars that were questionable. No dealer is a silver bullet. The only real silver bullet is a guarantee of return as part of the sales contract.

Also, over the past decade or so there have been a number of Austrian super bars produced that are definete fakes. They all seem to be 'fresh" and very flat looking-just like this one is.

I'd welcome others' opinions, especially Glenn's (if he is still here).

[McCulloh]

By the way, if you would like another opinion, try the forum here:
http://www.austro-hungarian-army.co.uk/

[Dave Danner]

The only thing directly wrong with the precedence is the placement of the Ehrenmedaille vom Roten Kreuz mit Kriegsdekoration. If that were considered a "war decoration of a German state" by the post-Anschluss rules, it should come before the Honor Cross for Combatants. If considered only a Red Cross award, it should come after the Austrian War Commemorative Medal.

However, the very presence of the Red Cross Decoration is problematic as well. I believe that this grade was primarily given to civilians and enlisted-leveol personnel, not officers.

I'd echo comments on the combination of the Military Merit Medals and the Bravery Medals. Besides the lack of the "K", Austro-Hungarian officers only received the Gold and Silver Bravery Medals. I suppose he might have been an officer candidate at the beginning of World War I and received the enlisted awards as an EM or NCO-equivalent. This was customary in German states, especially among war volunteers turned Leutnante d.R., but I don't know if it was customary in Austria-Hungary for OCs.

It might be OK by a stretch, but there are questions and the construction is, as noted above, similar to some that have been popping up in great numbers in recent years.

[haynau]

Some Corrections:

This Bar can't be a captains (+) Bar
Why: The small silver bravery medal and the bronce bravery medals were
ONLY given to soldiers, NCO's and fähnrichs (ensign). The bronce bravery medal was founded on 14th of Februar 1915. So it seems to be very unbelievable for AH-Army that someone was in ensign in 1914/15 and ends the war as captain (+). even highly decorated war heroes wernet't promototed so fast in old AH-Army.

Officers could ONLY get the large siler bravery medal and the golden bravery medal with the royal cypher K on the ribbon (instituted on 15th september 1917)

The bronce red cross medal with war-decoration is possible for this bar as it was given for merit but also for donations.

The combination shown on the bar is possible for an Lieutenant or an Oberleutnant who started war as ensign and was later promoted to officer.

Personally i don't like the bar. the ribbons look very new the backside aswell.
there are dozens on newmade AH-Bars in german style for sale at the moment.
It was possible for austrians to get the HK (1938-1939) but most didn't apply for the HK. so an HK on an AH-Bar in german mounting is for me allways an indicator for a newmade bar as the HK is very cheap and helps stretchening the bar.

as mentioned the lack of swords on the two officers merit medals is curious aswell.

regards

haynau

[McCulloh]

Haynau:
The silver SL was mostly awarded to Captains and above-or so my references state (admittedly the Hungarian awards summary).
As you say, Regular Army Captains did not get promotions that fast-from Ensign-even in the bloodbath of 1914-18. However, there were exceptions-and some of those are from the "volunteer" regiments. I have the pictures showing promotions upwards to prove it. I don't know about reserve formations, but glenn Jewison will.
In 1940 though, given this record, this guy was no Lt. dR after his recall.
Also, in looking at my Austrian officers documents summaries (ok, all of six examples- a VERY small database) only two got SLs within THREE years of each award. That is-these were not handed out like candy and there seems to have been at LEAST 18 months between awards. Again, there were probably exceptions.
Also, as you and I wrote, there was almost a years' time in which Austrians could apply for the HKx and many did-as photos demonstrate. However, many others did not and ...well see the other thread.
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=240506

[Don D.]

There is an seller on ebay.de out of Austria that has these monster bars all the time...

[Jimmy]

Thank you gentlemen, I appreciate all your untiring work. Again thanks...Jimmy

[McCulloh]

Thank you gentlemen, I appreciate all your untiring work. Again thanks...Jimmy

You are welcome.
I urge you to get additional opinions, especially from the Austrian experts and/or a couple of the guys at the gmic forum.

The good news is that the bar, like the old At&T company, is more valuable in parts than as a whole. The medals are almost (99.999%) certainly all originals. I reckon there is @ $600 worth right there in individual pieces.
Not bad for 250 Euros.