Hindenburg Cross for Austro-Hungarians?

[torstenbel]

Would anyone know if Austro-Hungarians were given the Hindenburg Cross after the Anschluss in 1938 or would have to have served in the German Army to have qualified for the cross? I suspect that German Army Service would have been a must, but I am just not 100% sure about this ... ?? Cheers, Torsten.

[speedytop]

Hi Torsten,

I can say it for Austria and Sudetenland, but not for Hungaria

Verordnung über die Einführung der Vorschriften über das Ehrenkreuz im Lande Österreich und in den sudetendeutschen Gebieten
Vom 30. November 1938 (RGBl. I S. 1682)

They could apply for the award in the time between 1. April 1939 - 30. September 1939.

Regards
Uwe

[torstenbel]

Hi Uwe, thank you very much .... in that case, I would quite like to see award certificates to any czech and austrians who had the cross issued during that time .... does it say anything about whether they had to have served in the Germany Army then or does it specifically say that Austro-Hungarian Army Service was acceptable? Cheers, Torsten.

[McCulloh]

Hi Torsten,

I can say it for Austria and Sudetenland, but not for Hungaria

Verordnung über die Einführung der Vorschriften über das Ehrenkreuz im Lande Österreich und in den sudetendeutschen Gebieten
Vom 30. November 1938 (RGBl. I S. 1682)

They could apply for the award in the time between 1. April 1939 - 30. September 1939.

Regards
Uwe

In some cases the award "periods" appear to have been stretched a bit-but this explains why there are a number of very good Austrian bars out there WITHOUT an HK. Many collectors who did not read the fine print in Kleitman's Hindenburg Cross articles (or never saw them) dismiss these Austrian bars as fakes "since they should have an HK".
Most fakers are canny -at least the bar makers over the past 15 years in southern Germany and Austria are. They add HKs-because they are cheap and because they want their wares to be attractive and look original. They avoid pitfalls-if they know about them.
Personally, I use the lack on an HK on an obviously Austrian bar as another indicator of originality, since it's obscure enough information that most fakers do not know it. It's not a silver bullet, but in context it makes it more likely-not less, that a bar is original.
...and that folks is the most valuable information on the WAF today!

[McCulloh]

oh...and

by the way-for a REALLY GOOD example of this see here:
Jr. Austrian lt. -probably at the front 1 year only. Recalled 1940-went to Russia, back home @ 1943 when this bar was made...
Probably signals or medical:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=237746

[torstenbel]

Hi McCulloh, thank you very much for the additional info ... I take it then for any Austrian and Czechs to apply for the Hindenburgcross in 1938, it would have been sufficient to have served in the Austrian Army at any time during the war and it was not necessary to have served in the German Army to qualify? Cheers, Torsten.

[speedytop]

Hi Torsten,

German text:
"Als österreichischer oder sudetendeutscher Kriegsteilnehmer ist anzusehen, wer im Weltkrieg auf Seite Österreich-Ungarns oder auf Seite der Verbündeten Kriegsdienste geleistet hat und ... deutscher Staatsbürger ist."

Rough translation: he must have served in WW I as a combatant in the Austro-Hungarian or an Allied Army, and he must now be a German citizen.

"Beweisstücke ... sind auch der Miltärentlassungsschein, ... die Mlitärdienstbestätigung, eine Urkunde (Legitimation) über die Verleihung einer österreich-ungarischen Kriegsauszeichnung und der Ausweis über die Verleihung der österreichischen Kriegserinnerungsmedaille mit den Schwertern."

Rough translation: he must be legitimated by defined miltary documents or documents for an Austro-Hungarian war honouring.

I never saw such an award document from 1939 or later, only from 1934 and 1935.


Regards
Uwe

[torstenbel]

Hi Uwe, thank you very much for those passages from the regulations ... that is exactly what I was interested to learn about ... I have also only ever had the 1934-5 certificates and never any later ones .. but I am sure they do exist..maybe someone on this forum has got one to show???? Cheers, Torsten.

[McCulloh]

Certificates from 1939 and even 1940 exist-but they are not common. The 1939 one I know about belongs to someone who left the WAF and won't come back, but it was to an Austrian (Wein). Others I have seen are from Czechoslovakia and even a couple from Poland in 1940. But these are rare, rare rare and the exception to the rule.
By the way, there is also a photo in the photo section of an Austrian Bandsman @ 1941 with a medal bar without an HKx, but WITH other TR medals. Absolute proof positive of this exception to the rule.
see here:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...00#post2127900

[torstenbel]

Certificates from 1939 and even 1940 exist-but they are not common. The 1939 one I know about belongs to someone who left the WAF and won't come back, but it was to an Austrian (Wein). Others I have seen are from Czechoslovakia and even a couple from Poland in 1940. But these are rare, rare rare and the exception to the rule.
By the way, there is also a photo in the photo section of an Austrian Bandsman @ 1941 with a medal bar without an HKx, but WITH other TR medals. Absolute proof positive of this exception to the rule.
see here:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...00#post2127900

wow...that bar does look strange and the other awards he is wearing with it and the whole combination of awards looks very unusual ... would love to know more about that man .... Cheers and Thanks for pointing at the photo ... Torsten.