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A Study of the Godet Style PlM

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    #61
    chasing and tool marks

    Digital cameras can have their limits.

    If you have access to a flat bed scanner, and can set the resolution to 1200 dpi or higher try this. Scan individual letters where you think they've been worked with a chasing chisel and hammer. Engravers do not attempt removing large amounts at one time. They will lightly scratch a line sometime using an awl and using very little pressure on the tool. Then they go over the same line several times. Each use of the tool leaves marks on the surface until the engraving is as deep as they like it. There will be many small tool marks from each time the chisel is struck. Most tool marks can be removed but never all of them. Usually there are tell tale signs.

    Before thinking it is easy to make one continuous deep line think about this. Write your name by putting a pen or pencil to paper and making a small line of two or three millimetres then lifing the pen. Then try putting the pen back in the same exact place where you lifted the pen and continue signing your name one small stroke at a time. Can you write your name without any stop or start points showing? If you try to write over your name a second time you still won't cover up all the start and stop gaps.

    An engraver might get a few of the grooved "chasing marks" very smooth. He won't get them all smooth. If all of the grooves are smooth and no signs of tool marks that indicates the grooves were more likely part of the mould -or die if your convinced that's all it can be- than applied after the blank was made.

    The example in the photos I have had no tool marks in any of the "chasing" grooves. I looked using a 20x lense and they simply weren't there in any of them. I'm not sure about the stippling around the crown though. That may be handwork.
    Last edited by bunyip; 01-10-2008, 03:40 PM. Reason: spelling

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      #62
      Originally posted by bunyip View Post
      You've suggested yours is die struck, probably from original dies. If that's the case why did Meybauer use only one die when an original Godet was made be being struck on two sides, presumably at the same time? One die could also be used to cast a piece directly from it instead of striking pieces. Casting can be easier and cheaper than stamping.

      Before you bring up the possiblity of having one sided examples for engraving, do you know of any Meybauer marked pieces that are or were engraved?

      bunyip
      There are two known single-sided wartime pieces. Whether one was Meybauer or Godet is impossible to determine given that the faces are identical. The other was marked Godet.

      The unmarked one was Major Martin Otto's as shown on pages 334-6 of Prussian Blue. In appearance, it looks exactly like the Meybauer. Only difference is no hallmark on the reverse.

      The other, which I believe Andreas owns, is Colonel Paul Krause's. It is engraved on the back and the arm ray edges.

      In the discussions on these pieces, none has suggested that they are cast. So, why would Godet strike them with a flat reverse? It has been suggested that it was for special presentation and engraving and even funeral pillows.

      Bunyip, if you will forgive me, I am satisfied that I have shown many detailed pictures of my Meyabuer. In all of the discussion, you have requested everyone else to show this or that and now not just magnified, but in microscopic detail that exceeds my capability. It is time for your own examples and pictures to prove your points.

      I would hope that you would invest the $25 to become an association member. Given your interest and knowledge, I believe it would be well worth the expense. If you cannot, then Marshall and I and others I am sure are willing to post your pictures for the discussion.

      Good discussion and appreciate the comments. I think it is in the realm of possibility that a PlM could be cast in an open-face mold, but I also have not seen sufficient evidence to suggest that either the Godet or Meyabeur single-sides displayed or discussed in this thread were cast. Perhaps they are, but I would like to hear from Stephen P, Andreas or others that have handled all the pieces discussed in the thread. And I certainly welcome anyone else's opinion out there. Steve

      Comment


        #63
        [QUOTE=regular122;2396899]There are two known single-sided wartime pieces. Whether one was Meybauer or Godet is impossible to determine given that the faces are identical. The other was marked Godet.

        The unmarked one was Major Martin Otto's as shown on pages 334-6 of Prussian Blue. In appearance, it looks exactly like the Meybauer. Only difference is no hallmark on the reverse.

        The other, which I believe Andreas owns, is Colonel Paul Krause's. It is engraved on the back and the arm ray edges.

        In the discussions on these pieces, none has suggested that they are cast. So, why would Godet strike them with a flat reverse? It has been suggested that it was for special presentation and engraving and even funeral pillows.


        [QUOTE]


        That overall statement is misleading.

        I've already commented on the engraved one shown in this thread. It's not a true single sided piece. It does not appear to have been struck as a single sided piece. The eagles and wedge are complete on the back side. The entire cross was probably made the same way others were, and had the back of the cross, but not the eagles or wedge filed smooth so it could be engraved. Because of that, it's not in the same category as yours. Or vice versa?


        Bunyip, if you will forgive me, I am satisfied that I have shown many detailed pictures of my Meyabuer. In all of the discussion, you have requested everyone else to show this or that and now not just magnified, but in microscopic detail that exceeds my capability. It is time for your own examples and pictures to prove your points.


        Steve, you are claiming to have a rare variant that has specific characteristics. You made the initial claims that YOUR piece has one characteristic or another. When asked to provide photos with enough detail you haven't been able to do so.

        It's not up to me to proove they exist. I've asked for you to show specific details in photos that back up your contention the letters were hand chased. I can show you photos of smooth grooves that you are telling us are hand chased on yours.

        You asked me to show they weren't. If the letters are smooth and there's no sign of tool markings instead of the overall design feature, how do I proove a negative?

        Photos of the reverse side have been posted. They show identical pitting and pocking that is present on an obvious cast copy of a different badge with a collapsed centre that could never have been cast. I can provide them if anyone wants more information on what casting can look like.

        When you asked for a photo that would show mould seams on the example I posted, I told you single piece moulds produce single sided pieces with NO seams. The piece has to have sides that allow it to be removed from the mould. If they taper outwards towards the top, or are straight, removing the piece is easily done. The straight sides and slightly rounded top edges that appear to be on yours would be easy to mould and cast.

        Meybauer could have easily acquired a Godet example with damaged enamel. One easy way to repair damaged enamel is remove it all, and do it over again. With the enamel removed, making a negative mould is easy and almost any first year art school student could do the same.

        There are several casting methods and many of them produce extremely high quality results. If you didn't know the items were cast you'd never think to look. Check out this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casting . Investment and lost wax casting in particular should give you pause to think about how many high-tech items in common use go without most people realizing how things are made. The best of them have no mould seams and almost no surface grain that indicates how they were made.

        Better yet. Find a local sculptor, arts foundry, or top notch art school and show them what you have. Without prompting them and leading questions, ask a professinal artist who works with metals precisely how the piece was made.

        The person that owns the one I photographed is an artist and his son works in a commerical art bronze foundry, handled the piece, and believes it's cast.



        [I]I would hope that you would invest the $25 to become an association member. Given your interest and knowledge, I believe it would be well worth the expense. If you cannot, then Marshall and I and others I am sure are willing to post your pictures for the discussion.

        Good discussion and appreciate the comments. I think it is in the realm of possibility that a PlM could be cast in an open-face mold, but I also have not seen sufficient evidence to suggest that either the Godet or Meyabeur single-sides displayed or discussed in this thread were cast. Perhaps they are, but I would like to hear from Stephen P, Andreas or others that have handled all the pieces discussed in the thread. And I certainly welcome anyone else's opinion out there. Steve
        [I/]

        Again, you're commenting on at least one Godet example which appears to have been made as a two sided piece and reworked. Do not say apples and oranges are the same. The Godet example does not immediately mean yours was made the same way. Two items can look the same and be made differently.

        If you trust them enough, insurance it and send it to them for their opinion.




        bunyip

        Comment


          #64
          Hi all,after reading all the input on this thread and others about these after 1918 PLMs I have decided to classify my 'Schickle" PLM as an original good quality but post 1918 example whose exact time of manufacture has yet to be determined.I apologise if I seem to be stating the obvious but its important to me to be able to know exactly what I have sitting in my display case(where it look great btw )
          Regards
          Steiner63

          Comment


            #65
            Steiner63, I had hoped we would get some comments on the piece. It is very nice. Marshall provided some good input.

            Bunyip, I am satisfied that the Meybauer has handchased letters. The pictures make it pretty clear. It is even more clear in hand, with the metal taking on a different hue rather than uniform as one might expect if the chasing was cast. At a minimum, if a cast piece, it was hand chased. As to the rest, I am waiting to see those pictures. Steve
            Last edited by regular122; 01-19-2008, 11:08 AM.

            Comment


              #66
              I agree Marshall made some good points and its true we cant know for sure about the origin of these PLM types,all we can do is form opinions based on the evidence we do have.My PLM was sold by both Detlev and emedals both of whom take pride in the fact that they sell nothing but authentic items,although realising no dealers are perfect I do get some satisfaction that both of these top dealers thought my PLM was no fake or copy.
              Regards
              Steiner63

              Comment


                #67
                Have you guys seen the golden Godet PlM on Detlev's offering this week?
                Last edited by medalnet; 01-20-2008, 01:17 PM.

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                  #68
                  Saw that one,way out of my price range though,would have to sell my entire collection and even then probably wouldnt have enough.

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                    #69
                    I'm still drooling over it but as stated above, out of my price range.
                    pseudo-expert

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                      #70
                      Almost seems like there are more gold PLMs than silver gilt ones up for sale,thats the second gold original issue PLM I've seen along with the one thats been listed on the emedals site for many months.

                      Comment


                        #71
                        Certainly, the silver gilt ones were only awarded for less then 2 years from 1916 - 1918.

                        Detlev was kind enough to let me have the picture for my web page. I added it under the Godet made section.

                        Comment


                          #72
                          Its interesting that a gold PLM was issued in 1918,well after the change to silver gilt,they must have been using old stock I guess.
                          Regards
                          Steiner63

                          Comment


                            #73
                            Special thanks to Paul Oats for his recent posting of a bronze-gilt Godet with TWO sides. This is the first bronze-gilt example that I am aware of to surface in this forum. It is probable this example was made between 1920 and 1945.

                            It compares very closely to the single-sided Godet made for Major Hans Otto and Colonel Paul Krause and also the standard Meybauer. While I believe those examples posted were struck, the appearance of Paul Oat's example has striations on the edges and bubbling on the eagles, making it possible that this example may be cast. It also lacks the hand-chased letters of the struck examples. Many thanks to Paul for the pictures and for helping us add yet another example in the Godet PlM story. Steve


                            Front side
                            Attached Files
                            Last edited by regular122; 04-25-2008, 05:13 PM.

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                              #74
                              Back side
                              Attached Files

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                                #75
                                Side by Side
                                Attached Files

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