A Study of the Godet Style PlM

[Andy K.]

Andy,

Welcome to the forum. If you forward me the pics via email, I can post them for you. I sent my email address to you via PM on this forum. Would love to see pics and discuss it. Steve

Hello Steve,

Many thanks for you friendly offer. Gladly I can send to you some photos of the Godet PLM for this forum.

Still some note of the PLM. The ribbon loop likely becomes contemporarily replaced, although on the photos this loop clearly to recognize is. The enamel losses come of the fact that the bearer has also got the Knights’s Cross of the Iron Cross in the 2nd world war.

Andy

[bunyip]

Bunyip,

As to the Meybauer molding statement, I would love to have your source for this. Not disputing it, but would rather like to expand the Meybauer knowledge base more. I can tell you though that it certainly does not appear cast and the hand-finishing marks are certainly present and consistent with Godet pieces. There are a few of these that are in collections in GB, NZ and USA, but others not known. Thanks, Steve

I've seen several single sided Meybauer PlMs. Every one of them has been cast.

The obverse or front side images of your Meybauer are clear. I've looked through the archives and you've never provided a clear close up of the reverse.

In the thread here, the details of the reverse side are washed out and the details can't be seen on the images you provided. Would you be so kind to provide the forum with a clear high resolution image of yours? If yours was struck, the reverse side should have a hard smooth almost unblemished surface similar to any coin in your pocket. If the reverse of yours is highly flawed and show pock marks it is most likely cast not struck.

Do that. Then I'll provide high resolution photos of a single sided Meybauer that has numerous signs of being cast. The back has numerous blow out and air-pocket holes left over from the casting process.

bunyip

[regular122]

I've seen several single sided Meybauer PlMs. Every one of them has been cast.

The obverse or front side images of your Meybauer are clear. I've looked through the archives and you've never provided a clear close up of the reverse.

In the thread here, the details of the reverse side are washed out and the details can't be seen on the images you provided. Would you be so kind to provide the forum with a clear high resolution image of yours? If yours was struck, the reverse side should have a hard smooth almost unblemished surface similar to any coin in your pocket. If the reverse of yours is highly flawed and show pock marks it is most likely cast not struck.

Do that. Then I'll provide high resolution photos of a single sided Meybauer that has numerous signs of being cast. The back has numerous blow out and air-pocket holes left over from the casting process.

bunyip

Thanks. Here is a pic that may help. You can see evidence of the hand finishing I spoke of. As to the back, while I agree that any pock marks are a sure sign of casting, 'pebbling' or 'roughness' may not be at all, such as with the War Merit Cross, or with the rough pie wedge section of a struck wartime Godet PlM. I can find no pock marks, but I suppose it may be possible the Meybauer is cast, but they display the same characteristics of the Godet single-sides, which were struck. They certainly are hand finished, to include chased lettering. Thanks for the additional info and I look forward to your examples and appreciate the offer to post them as they are not often seen here or over at the GMIC. Steve

[regular122]

These pics of a wonderful Godet example are posted for Andy per request above. Discussion will follow the last pic. Thanks to Andy for sending these pics of his beautiful Godet. Steve

The obverse

[regular122]

The reverse

[regular122]

Maker mark details.

I for one do not see why it would not be possible for this cross to be of the 1916-1918 manufacture date, ribbon loop excepting. The stampings vary on wartime crosses as we have seen in surviving examples, to include a 'JGuS' variation.

It is known that some post-war Godet examples had '925' and no JGuS or JGUS mark--just the number. Some had no mark at all. Others had 938 with a crown, moon and JGUS. Stephen Prevetera states that any mark other than 938 in silver content should be regarded as a post-war period or perhaps even a foreign made cross.

Given that yours has the 938, that would make it plausible for the 1916-1918 period. In terms of detail from the photos, it seems to meet every criteria I can see for a legitimate wartime-made Godet and the chipped enameling shows a wonderful view into the workmanship of this delicate, hollow, enameled piece. Whether the recipient acquired it during the war, like the one Udet wore but was not issued, or whether he bought it from left-over stock later will probably never be known. But I think this could be a wartime cross given these markings.

Comments from others I am sure are welcome by Andy. Steve

[bunyip]

Thanks. Here is a pic that may help. You can see evidence of the hand finishing I spoke of. As to the back, while I agree that any pock marks are a sure sign of casting, 'pebbling' or 'roughness' may not be at all, such as with the War Merit Cross, or with the rough pie wedge section of a struck wartime Godet PlM. I can find no pock marks, but I suppose it may be possible the Meybauer is cast, but they display the same characteristics of the Godet single-sides, which were struck. They certainly are hand finished, to include chased lettering. Thanks for the additional info and I look forward to your examples and appreciate the offer to post them as they are not often seen here or over at the GMIC. Steve

The PEBBLING on the Godet wedge is intentional. It is decorative and part of the design. It wasn't an .

Pock marks are very obvious signs of casting although not the only ones. The holes around the eagle's legs and wings were cast, not cut out. Look at the back side of the medal. Stamped holes are characterised by straight edges and corners. Careful filing can reshape an edge and round it off. However, filing or rounding edges where two surfaces join in a sharp angle is where to look. If the junctures are tight, getting a file into a sharp narrow crevice may not be possible. Removing all traces of file or tool marks is not easy. Under high magnification (10x is minimal, 20x better) tool markings can often be seen.

The reverse side in the photo of yours still isn't sharp or clear enough to see the surface grain or texture of the metal. The edges of the spaces around the feet of the eagles wings/feet look rounded off. The rounded edges around the in the examples I've seen, and hinted at in yours also, don't look filed.

Hot metal shrinks away from the walls of a mould when it cools. Baked bread or dough does the same thing when it cools after being taken from an oven. It seperates from the walls, and edges round off naturally along outer edges.

I'll post some photos early next week when I get caught up with things going on at work and home. I've taken the photos, but need to do some editing to size. One clearly shows large blow out holes on the reverse side of a single sided Meybauer PlM, and reverse edge rounding.

You mention hand chasing on the letters. Engraving tools don't leave smooth marks. The tool is lightly hammered across a surface and under magnification leaves what looks like many small steps. Removing graver marks isn't easily done and there are always a few sharp edges left. If the edge feels too smooth that's a strong suggestion of cast "chasing". If you use a 20x loupe and can't see any graver marks, that's because the "chasing" was part of the mould used to cast the piece.


bunyip

[Biro]

Bunyip

You can't post photos here unless you are a full member.

I am interested in these casting 'pock marks' you speak of - if you email me the pictures I will post them for you.. marshallbird@hotmail.com

We are a friendly bunch here - don't you have a real name?

Marshall

[regular122]

I am interested in these casting 'pock marks' you speak of -

I am too Marshall. I am not convinced the Meyabuers are cast. At least not the one in my possession. For the sake of discussion, I am posting a few close up pics under a different lighting to address Bunyip's request and comments on the chased letters being cast as well. They are not on my piece. They are clearly engraved. And I can find no evidence of the casting bubbles common on medals that are cast. And the intricate hand work is complete throughout.

Given that the single-sided Godets were struck, and given the identical face of the Meybauer with the Godet, most of the collectors discussing these pieces so far believe they were likely from Godet dies. This is the first time anyone has suggested the pieces are cast. If they are, lets see the case made. I am open to the discussion. Steve

[regular122]

The pie wedge

[regular122]

The back with maker mark in close up

[Biro]

These are the photos that Mr Bunyip sent me to post for him...

[Tiger 1]

Those marks don't look to be casting pock marks to me. They look to be made by whatever was on the flat die when the obverse was struck. In the coin world similar types of marks ocassionaly appear when dirt, lint or a thread from a rag used to wipe down the die remains behind and a new planchect is struck over this debris. If I remember right the term sometimes used is an 'inclusion'. These marks look more pushed in rather than being caused by casting porosity.

JMO for what it's worth.

Tony

[regular122]

Thanks Tony for the analysis as well. Always nice to get your input. Thanks Marshall and Bunyip for the posting of the pics.

It is an intersting backing of that particular Meybauer piece as well. The obverse is textbook while the reverse is more in line with the single-sided smooth surface Godets. It varies from the other examples seen which are rough surface textured.

Would love to hear more from others about the inclusion possibility on Bunnyip's photo. Would also love to hear from Stephen P.

My understanding on the Meybauers is that they were struck along the same lines as the single-sided Godet variation. Maybe even the same die. I still believe that to be true but would love to hear from others. Since Meybauers are so rarely seen or discussed, not much is out there on them--even in Prussian Blue, where they do not even make an appearance but are discussed with the single-sides. Steve

[Don D.]

Steve, those are definately not casting bubbles. The irregular shapes don't match what you find when air is trapped during casting. I would have to agree that they look more like debris was in the die when this piece was stamped.