A 'Study of' the Pour le Merite series

[Hohenstaufen]

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[Hohenstaufen]

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[Unfront]

PlM w/ Oakleaves on eBay

Hello everyone, I do not get to spend much time in the imperial thread. However the PlM is one of my favorite medals of all time. Though I do not think I will ever get the chance to have an original, I do enjoy reading about it and studying the variations of the makers etc. With that, has anyone on this thread taken a look at this PlM w/ Oak leaves that is on eBay?

http://cgi.ebay.com/UNIQUE-or-order-...3286.m20.l1116

what are your thoughts?

[regular122]

It was discussed actually in two threads:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=287887

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...lM+eBay&page=2

Looks like an S&L that was spruced up with an impossible configuration and story. Steve

[Elmar Lang]

Hello,

just to add something new, in a recently published book, Ferenc Fekete and Attila Baum: "A Magyar Királyság Kitüntései 1920-1945" Budapest, HK Hermanos Kiadó, 2010, on pages 20 and 42, there are full-page pictures of Field Marshal Archduke Joseph (in the uniform used during the regency period of Admiral Horthy), visibly wearing a Rothe-type Pour le Mérite with Oak Leaves, among his other highest, Imperial Austrian orders and decorations: all of them look of pre-1918 manufacture so I think that also the Prussian order could be from the same period.

I hope this would help a little.

Best wishes,

Elmar Lang

[Bucky]

Hi I would like to know your opinion.
Is this an original manufacturer plm Rothe?
How old is it?

Best regards
Bucky

[pzrwest]

I was going to ask Hohenstaufen where his pics went till I noticed the word expelled beneath his name

[Bucky]

Hi I would like to know your opinion.
Is this an original manufacturer plm Rothe?
How old is it?

Best regards
Bucky

Are there any other opinions on my PlM.

Bucky

[Erickn]

.

[Zepenthusiast]

A curiosity about this particular type, while immediately invoking the "Rothe" form, is that pretty much every aspect of the cross structure and lettering, aside from the eagles themselves, features many of the aesthetic details of the classic Godet PlM with too much consistency to seem coincidence alone:

The tiny waist, the exact shape of each letter and their arrangement:

-A taller top to the t in "rite" (squared top on the Rothe-type deviates from the Godet version, however)
-Both base-serifs on the M are flat
-The hyphen and ellipsis are ~ equidistant from the e in "Me"
-The crown has the higher dome arches and depicts the crown of Wilhelm I instead of Friedrich I
-The "backbone" of the F nearly centered and with a relatively small left-sided serif
-The e in "le" nearly centered between the l and M
-The P overlaps the o more prominently
-"Pebbled" surface finish on the pie slice

From Medalnet, for comparison:



Imitation the highest form of flattery?


Other "Rothe types" do not share all or even many of these features, so may be helpful in figuring out when they were made? (Elmar?)

Regards,

Jim

[medalnet]

It's a fake

[Elmar Lang]

Dear Jim,

the PLM you've posted, is not a Rothe piece. From the Viennese jeweller there is one type only, with its distinctive eagles. The blue enamel, can be of a lighter, or darker shade.

Usually, they are made of gilt silver. In 1979, I've seen one piece "mit Eichenlaub" at the Kohlmarkt shop of Rothe: it was made of gold, correctly struck with pre-1918 marks and in a beautiful, austrian-type case. The price was then impossible to me. I don't know the whereabouts of that fine piece.

Most pieces are not marked, some are struck with the later, "CFR" mark and silver one of the type after 1922. This makes very difficult to determine whether the piece could be earlier than 1918 or not...

E.L.

[Zepenthusiast]

Somehow ended up with two copies of the same post...deleted this one!

[Zepenthusiast]

Hello Elmar!

The "Rothe type" to which I was referring (and interested in your opinion) was the thread-starter below--posted by Buck--and not the one in my post from 4/24/2016. I know the MedalNet-borrowed example I posted for comparison is a Godet, but I was wanting to point out that Bucky's cross, and some others called "Rothes", based upon the form of the eagles, mostly, have a number of qualities which very closely resemble/mimic the classic Godet offering, yet are clearly not meant to match/copy entirely, given the eagles. It has made me wonder if Godet might have at some earlier time collaborated in the Rothe design-work, or if Rothe had simply taken the Godet design as a model (as opposed to the Wagner form, with which the "Rothes" share far fewer similarities)?

My understanding is Andreas is considering any non-issue version a "fake," though allowing for some recognized period private purchase versions, like the classic Godets. However, it would seem Rothe manufactured at the very least as a tribute, rather than with intent to deceive. That strikes me as a different consideration.

By the criteria of demonstrating adherence to official-issue-version design, the classic Godet might thus also be considered a "fake," albeit one of known period manufacture and popularity with members of the Order. After all, it was not ever an issue piece and did differ from the Wagner/FR official design every bit as much as the Rothe version does. You have offered some compelling personal observations to support Rothe having made at least some number of period "second pieces," which is not illogical given their stature as Court Jeweler to the Habsburgs. Sure would be wonderful to look over the gold version you describe!

I tried to find an affordable copy of the book you mentioned some time back, too, with the photo of what you felt could reasonably be a "Rothe type" in wear, but no luck so far...

All the best,

Jim

[Elmar Lang]

Hello,

also in this case, we should keep in mind the difference in the meaning of the words "Copy" and "Fake", where Copy is a piece made and sold to replace a piece whatsoever, that for any reason went lost, or (to collectors) is extremely difficult to find.

A Fake, is a copy, made/sold with the proposal of deceiving the good faith of a collector.

Back to the topic, the PLM of Buck is yes a Rothe piece. Extremely difficult -from pictures- to determine if it was made earlier or later than 1918.

Let's not forget that the Pour le Mérite, to Austria, was a "foreign" order so, the pieces made by Rothe has to be considered as private purchase pieces.

The famous viennese firm, made orders from all over the world, for instance, from Turkey, Siam, Persia etc. and even… Madagascar!

I can say that selling a 1965-made Rothe copy of the PLM affitrming that it's a prussian-made original from 1917... well, that would be a fake.

Otherwise, we can consider them as beautiful, private purchase copies, either from pre-1918, or 1920-30, or… 1950-70.

Best,

E.L.